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2010-06-21, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Overcoming 15/magic damage reduction is simple. You need a magic weapon or to have your attacks count as magic. Epic which is an advanced form of the previous damage reduction is only overcome by epic weapons or weapons that count as epic. So would it stand to reason that if your weapons count as epic they would also count as magic? I've seen rules that support this and I'm 99.9% sure it would. What do you think? My rm/player seems to think that epic wouldn't overcome magic damage reduction that epic only overcome epic and magic only overcome magic.
I bring this up because the Tarrasque vs Allip thread always has the Allip winning because the Tarrasque can't hit it. Well it's got epic damage reduction so therefor it can overcome magic like damage reduction and would be able to hit it. Am I wrong? We are looking at their Pathfinder versions.Last edited by Khellendross; 2010-06-21 at 09:57 PM.
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2010-06-21, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Epic weapons are magic weapons by default since it takes an enhancement to be an epic weapon and every weapon with enhancement is a magic weapon...
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2010-06-21, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Given that dr/epic is basically an improved version of dr/magic, it makes sense that dr/epic lets you overcome dr/magic.
For what it is worth, I asked wotc's customer service this very question many years ago, and their response was in the affirmative.
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2010-06-21, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-21, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Is there really an example of something that counts as epic but not magic?
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2010-06-21, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-21, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
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2010-06-21, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Okay, where does it say that it doesn't when it says that you're natural attacks are treated as epic weapons. If I remember right if two creatures have magic damage reduction they negate each other. So why wouldn't epic also negate it if epic is a magic weapon+? Or is this we dont' know so best guess is...I'm a Neutral Good Human Fighter (7th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 16
Dexterity- 11
Constitution- 15
Intelligence- 14
Wisdom- 14
Charisma- 17
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2010-06-21, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
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2010-06-21, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Actually, a look at Rules Compendium:
"Epic
Weapons that have a magical enhancement bonus of +6 or higher can overcome epic damage reduction. An “epic weapon” isn’t enough. This type of damage reduction is supernatural. If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR 5/epic, it also has the epic strike ability (see page 100)."
"Epic Strike
Natural weapon attacks made by a creature that has this supernatural special attack are treated as having a +6 magical enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
So yeah, creatures with epic DR do pierce DR/Magic now.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2010-06-21, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Thank you for that answer. I knew they did overcome magic but wanted verification to back it up.
This means that the Tarrasque vs Allip argument is not the Tarasque can win.Last edited by Khellendross; 2010-06-21 at 10:12 PM.
I'm a Neutral Good Human Fighter (7th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 16
Dexterity- 11
Constitution- 15
Intelligence- 14
Wisdom- 14
Charisma- 17
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2010-06-21, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
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2010-06-21, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
The Tarrasque's attacks may count as magic for beating DR, but I don't think there's anything that says they count as magic for being able to hit incorporeal, which is the real problem in the Tarrasque vs Allip matchup.
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2010-06-21, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
Logically, a creature that overcomes epic DR should overcome magic DR.
Epic DR is simply xx/+6 or higher, its a greater version of DR/magic. Back in 3.0 it was just vs +6, +7, +8 etc. In the switch to 3.5 the hierarchy was eliminated and it become simply DR/epic.
Well you can argue that technically..., but it sounds kinda silly to me.
That being said, even if a creature's natural weapons count as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. That is utterly meaningless with incorporeal creatures. It has to be a +1 enchantment bonus or higher.
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2010-06-21, 10:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-22, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
There's an interesting clause in the Incorporeal Subtype, whether it's in the SRD, MMI, or MMV. It states they can be struck by creatures that strike as magic weapons. This is a bit ham handed and not entirely airtight because they are stated to strike as magic only for purposes of overcoming DR, but it seems to be an effort to let big T hit incorporeals, among other things.
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2010-06-22, 04:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
The SRD version of incorporeality says "magic weapons" not "weapons with a +1 or higher bonus."
Incorporeality
Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.
Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.
I'm guessing the MMV version (or maybe the Rules Compendium version?) had the clause clarifying that Magic Strike counts as a magic weapon.Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-06-22 at 04:23 AM.
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2010-06-22, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
The various things on creatures always say "For the purposes of overcoming damage reduction" Which would exclude, regeneration, incorporeality and anything else that isn't damage reduction.
Such as a monk's ki strike makes his unarmed attack count as magic "For the purposes of overcoming damage reduction"
It does appear however Incorporeality is listed twice in the SRD,
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm
—Incorporeal Subtype
In this case "magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons"
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#
—Incorporeality
In this case "by magic weapons"
Using the special abilities wording, you need an actually enchantment bonus on your weapon, as creatures that strike as magic do so only for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Using the subtype wording creatures that strike as magic weapons qualify so that includes. The Rules Compendium only uses the "magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons" version.
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2010-06-22, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Magic/Epic Damage Reduction and Overcoming it
The subtype version may be the most helpful in this regard- since I think it was revised in MMIII and Libris Mortis, and the revised version of the subtype used in MMIV and MMV.
So if we consider that the subtype text is more recent, and so more valid, than the Incorporeality text in the DMG, then it takes precedence.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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