Do demons worship? [3.5]

[Clovis]

I am writing a CE demigod of a mortal origin: a shadowelf bestowed with divinity by Ao for services rendered. I was wondering if he could gain more devoters -- and therefore more power as measured by divine ranks -- by gaining followers among demons. BoVD and Fiendish Codex are a bit unclear on this issue.

[Salbazier]

Since when Ao grants anything to mortal?

If there's a god among demons some them may worship him, but I don't think that count for divine rank. Otherwise no god will bother with mortals at all.

[Eldan]

That would likely depend on the demon in question. The more powerful ones are quasi-deities themselves, but the lesser ones? If you can convince them to worship you, no problem.

[Angelmaker]

The question is: Should he be able to? Which consequences does it have?

If he should be able to, then yes. Do you really need rules for this? If it is for story purposes: Why, go for it.

[hamishspence]

Since when Ao grants anything to mortal?

He chooses to grant Cyric and Mystra divinity after they return the tablets of fate- not primarily because of that, but because deities have died and their roles need filling.

[Salbazier]

Oh, yeah I forgot those two.

[hamishspence]

There's also him talking to Elminster in book 2 of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, and in War In Tethyr, he speaks (once) to a paladin, who is fighting a false cult of Ao, and whose companion has died- resurrecting the paladin's companion and showing approval of the paladin's actions.

That said, him communicating to mortals who don't end up as gods at some point, is exceptionally rare.

[Clovis]

Ao bestowing divinity happened at the end of a campaign. Our long-time gaming group disbanded and the GM thought that he'd never see the players or PCs again so he elevated them all to demigods for saving other deities being held captive by Thanatos. I've been writing the story of this demigod ever since and, as luck would have it, some of us reconvened under the same GM, so our demigods are actually back in the game. So, DM fiat in the first place and now I need to make this demigod pc stronger to be able to help my followers to conquer the elven nation . His followers are hard at it and I've got to keep my face straight when our current PCs are hearing news about it.
Mystara campaign, not very many homebrewn rules apart from a few demigods. That's why I asked if there are references for demons worshiping. I know it can be houseruled, but a diplomacy check against a reluctant DM has a DC of one gazillion...
Anyway, thanks for any info!

[hamishspence]

While I can easily imagine demons worshipping demon princes (which can act as conduits for the Abyss to grant divine power) in FC1, demons are extremely opposed to the gods in general.

That said, if the god has a strong affinity with the demonic (such as Lolth) it might be more plausible.

[Mjoellnir]

I may be crazy but I think that a god needs actual mortal worshipers. Otherwise gods could sustain themselves through their petitioners and outsider servants and there wouldn't be any risk of dieing from lack of worship unless his realm gets annihilated.

[Clovis]

That said, if the god has a strong affinity with the demonic (such as Lolth) it might be more plausible.

Hmm, forgot to mention that bit of information: He is a former worshiper and now ally of Lolth, who of course uses him for her own purposes. The GM and I agreed that he is not subservient to Lolth, ie does not send her power through worship. Hence strong affinity to demons.

The point that if gods could rely on outsider worship, mortal worship would not be needed so much is a good one, though.

[Eldan]

While I can easily imagine demons worshipping demon princes (which can act as conduits for the Abyss to grant divine power) in FC1, demons are extremely opposed to the gods in general.
.

Really? Interesting. Seems like I'll have to read the FCs one day. I only knew the Daemons doing that. (Stupid upstart spawn of mortal worship)

[hamishspence]

Hmm, forgot to mention that bit of information: He is a former worshiper and now ally of Lolth, who of course uses him for her own purposes. The GM and I agreed that he is not subservient to Lolth, ie does not send her power through worship. Hence strong affinity to demons.

Sounds a bit like a male counterpart of some of the other ascended mortal drow deities- Zinzarena, or Kiaransalee.

Selvatarm doesn't really count- since he was the offspring of deities. However, since he gained some of his power by slaying a demon lord (Zanasu- a spider demon) he might be a good parallel example.

If this demigod has taken over a demonic realm, he might make a good patron for demonic clerics.

[Tiki Snakes]

I don't think Demons really have it in them to worship with anything approaching genuine-ness. You could certainly bribe, cajoal or force them into serving you, of course, but I don't think they'd really make a worth-while bunch of followers.

I kind of think of it along the lines of, well, they're not mortal. They've seen beyond the veil, and understand to fundamentally that the difference between a God and a Demon Prince is largely semantics.

[hamishspence]

It would probably be more a case of the demon exploiting a source of power, than real devotion. Still, demonic clerics of a demonic god don't seem that implausible.

[DragoonWraith]

In Planescape, at least, demons would be creatures of belief, and being formed from worship would probably not worship other things.

[Mnemnosyne]

I don't know if there is a specific 3.5 reference that deals with this, I've never read one. However in the 2nd Edition boxed set, Hellbound: The Blood War, it specifically covers fiend priests.

A fiend priest got to where it is by making a pact with an evil god, pledging to do the deity's bidding in exchange for raw power. Most often, a would-be priest who strikes such a bargain is bent on exacting revenge on a powerful enemy. The deal involves more service than worship - fiends never take up a god's robes out of true faith or sincere belief.

While that doesn't cover fiend worshipers, the note about true faith or sincere belief would seem to cover that part. In order to gain power from worshipers, presumably a god must have them actually have some degree of sincere faith or belief.

In my opinion, I don't think any innately outer-planes races (fiends, celestials, modrons, slaadi, rilmani, etc) are capable of granting divine power to gods, they're essentially outside that framework. We should also remember that the fiends as races are older than the gods, pretty much. At the very least, they think they are, given that pretty much all the individuals old enough to actually have been around at the time on either side are gone.

If a fiend were to gain mortal worshipers of its own, as they sometimes do, I expect it would be able to enter into a bargain with a god to transfer those worshipers' power to the true god, while receiving something in exchange. That seems to be the most likely potential situation for a god getting divine power from fiends. Assuming the fiend doesn't have aspirations of becoming an actual deity (many of them would not want to - they know well the gods, their power, but also their limitations, and while some of them have no issues with that, others wouldn't accept the limitations that comes with being a god, such as acting within your own portfolio) this arrangement would be beneficial to both sides.

[hamishspence]

At the very least, they think they are, given that pretty much all the individuals old enough to actually have been around at the time on either side are gone.

The demonic obyrith lords (Dagon, Pale Night, Pazuzu, Obox-ob) are probably among the few from that era that are free and powerful. Most obyrith lords tend to be semi-dead, or imprisoned.

[DragoonWraith]

If a fiend were to gain mortal worshipers of its own, as they sometimes do, I expect it would be able to enter into a bargain with a god to transfer those worshipers' power to the true god, while receiving something in exchange. That seems to be the most likely potential situation for a god getting divine power from fiends.

The Lilitu in... Fiendish Codex I? do just that, they revel in corrupting the faithful into accidentally worshiping a demon lord.

[Clovis]

Sounds a bit like a male counterpart of some of the other ascended mortal drow deities- Zinzarena, or Kiaransalee.

Selvatarm doesn't really count- since he was the offspring of deities. However, since he gained some of his power by slaying a demon lord (Zanasu- a spider demon) he might be a good parallel example.

If this demigod has taken over a demonic realm, he might make a good patron for demonic clerics.

Good comments from all of you, thank you! This one is close to the mark. In our campaign world he certainly has contacted Kiaransalee (the GM and I haven't got writing that part yet) and Selvetarm isn't dead but contact hasn't been made since my demigod has contacted Lolth directly.

An idea has been growing that this demigod would defeat a minor demon lord in Pazunia (1st layer of the Abyss) and take over a territory. Problem is how to maintain the realm -- the demigod could not spend his all of his time there and with the current 4 divine ranks he cannot afford to have a proxy present at any given time to maintain control. That's why more divine ranks are needed. Also, his current escapades on the Prime will piss Corellon off something awful. However, in our campaign the chaotic elements are winning at the current time.

Demonic clerics sound like a workable idea. The fact that demons would use him as a conduit for power would not faze the demigod since it would be vice-versa. If he's a racial god for subterraneon elves what else would he need demons for except for fodder and source of power? Both sides would know this and benefit. A recently ascended divine being would have a helluva -- sorry, abyssal time to convince any fiend to worship him, given the inherent distrust of gods.

Why all these questions? A recently ascended god is impatient! and not so knowledgeable about the cosmos/multiverse

[Jorda75]

I don't believe that having outsiders worship a powerful outsider (like a deity or the like) grants them any divine power and here's where my thinking comes from:

Asmodeus is the most powerful devil in all the 9 hells and though certainly not all the devils worship him as a god a great many do. Even if a small portion of the cursed souls and devils that walk the 9 hells worshiped him so his followers would number in the hundreds of thousands, if not more. And yet he is not of divine rank, because while he holds an iron grip on hell, on the material plane his cult is still relatively small on most worlds.

Mortal followers seem to be the only source of gaining more divine power through worship. Demons, angels and devils are most often either created directly by the gods to serve them or are a byproduct of the nature of their native domain (such that "hell" spawns demons by it's own will, for example).

[Clovis]

Talking about Asmodeus: the Dicefreaks bestow him with enough cosmic ranks to place him among the greater deities (or cosmic beings) who do not need or care about followers, mortal or otherwise. Personally I find this to be more plausible. He's too powerful to care about the Prime, since he's one of the Three (original ones).

ps. No troll or flaming intended!

[hamishspence]

There's a lot of versions of Asmodeus's story.

I think one had him and Jazirian (a serpent deity) be twins, fight, and him cast down by Jazirian.

Interestingly, Jazirian is not an old deity in Serpent Kingdoms- he was created when Amphisbaena the World Serpent split into many lesser deities under the questioning of the nagas.

Since amphisbaenas in D&D are serpents with a head at either end- maybe Asmodeus was one head, Jazirian the other, and the many other reptilian deities spawned from the place where the body split?

Fiendish Codex 2 has him as a servant of the gods of law. So, not a primordial entity like the obyriths.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Do demons worship? What a silly question to ask of course they worship, demons worship power plain and simple. Power, evil and destruction.
They are what a demon is, loves, desires so it is what it worships.

[hamishspence]

Which is not quite the same thing as worshipping a deity with the Evil and Destruction domains.

If you go by FC1, demons usually hate divine entities.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Which is not quite the same thing as worshipping a deity with the Evil and Destruction domains.

If you go by FC1, demons usually hate divine entities.

Did I say deity? I don't think I did

[hamishspence]

The original question concerned a demigod- can he get demons to worship him?

The fact that demons might worship abstract forces rather than deities- "Evil" "Destruction" "The Abyss" and so on, doesn't have much bearing on the question of "can a demigod persuade demons to worship him"

[Optimystik]

What about Orcus? He was trying to be divine - was he expecting for all his worshipers to be from the Prime? Was he slated to be the demonic equivalent of Germans Love David Hasselhoff?

[hamishspence]

He probably falls into the "demonic- so easy for demons to worship" category.

A demon who is a god (like Ghostwalk Orcus, or Lolth in the fluff) is probably easier for demons to worship, than a plain deity with no tie to demons.

That said, if (as people have speculated) outsider worshippers can't actually elevate you, than it would explain Orcus investing heavily in worship by mortals.

[Jorda75]

Another example of a god in an evil realm who does not gain power from their followers is Lolth. She resides in the Demon Web Pits and it would seem her power is based solely on her number of Prime worshipers, mainly Drow of course, and not the demons that reside in her realm with her.

Orcus is another example, he almost became a god but it was only when his death cults grew to sufficient size that this happened, not his base of demon followers.

The "soul" is the key issue for me, as that's where I feel divine worship lies. Demons and their ilk are not mortals, like elementals they're spawned from primal sources and while they can think and act as they please their "souls" are not really theirs to give, unlike a mortal worshiper with a finite life span and a soul to give as they please.