[3.5] Non-caster SoXs

[Flickerdart]

Do non-casters (not including the 1/2 caster types like Paladin, ToB, Incarnum or ToM) have any significant Save or Die/Lose/Suck options in 3.5? The only ones I recall off-hand are the Death Attack (every three rounds with a low DC), the Stunning Fist and its many variations (requiring a hit and also a save off a secondary stat) and Quivering Palm (terrible in more than one way). Poisons are hard to make effective, and many things are immune to them anyway. Stat damage is still a kind of damage.

So, Playground - what non-caster options can take down enemies without dealing damage? How many of them are actually any good?

[Il_Vec]

I am AFB right now, but I do believe that the level 9 Tiger Claw maneuver was a save-or-die.

[sofawall]

Net and Lasso come to mind.

[Siosilvar]

I am AFB right now, but I do believe that the level 9 Tiger Claw maneuver was a save-or-die.

Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader are counted as casters per the opening post.

...some of the various Sneak Attack replacement feats may offer something.

[Il_Vec]

Sorry about that. But isnt Death Attack also from half-casting classes?

[Myou]

Every melee class gets a save or die. Massive damage.
Deal 50 or more damage and the target has to make a fortitude save or die.

It was the very first rule I banned from my game.

[lsfreak]

By 10th-12th level, melee are ideally forcing a SoD from massive damage every round. Of course, it's a low save DC, and I don't know anyone who uses those rules.

Quick draw with a net. Touch attacks aren't hard even with a -4 nonproficiency. Make it spell storing with something in it. Bolas would be great if they were a ranged touch, but as they're not, they're pretty much Master of Masks-only.

Feral Death Blow is, indeed, a save-or-die. Many of ToB maneuvers have save-or-something, and many don't offer a save. They range from from losing actions to ability damage to White Raven's signature no-save daze.

Knockdown is a save-or-suck of sorts. Three Mountains is a save-or-nauseate (for a round). Shield Slam is a stun effect, I think.

Staggering Strike is a save-or-suck. Crippling Strike and the various ambush feats are no-save, but will rarely do much compared to just sneak attacking someone down to dead.

[mcl01]

Cha focused warriors (bards, paladins, sorcerer swiftblades) have the sudden stunning weapon enhancement from DMGII. A stun effect for 1d4+1 rounds usable CHA times per day with a scaling, CHA based DC.

Level 10 Paladin with 24 CHA (+7) can activate it 7 times per day for a DC22 reflex save or stun for 1d4+1 rounds. It's very short term, but depending on the situation, can easily turn to a save-or-lose.

Bards also have the very nice spell, Bladeweave. A swift action spell that allows allows you to force a save vs daze every round you hit an enemy. Once again, a quite nice save-or-lose.

[Flickerdart]

Sorry about that. But isnt Death Attack also from half-casting classes?

But not as a direct consequence of spells or similar, which is the important bit.

I cannot find the Sudden Stunning enhancement. What page is it?

[Lans]

Things that can be gotten through feats
Boomerang Daze(RoE) and Standstill both have up beatable DCs
Dire Flail and a Shield Feats that causes Daze.
True name effects.
Hammer's Edge, Three Mountains Style Anvil of Thunder Style from CW
Stunning Fist,
Imperious Command not exactly SoX, but is pretty close.

[Fax Celestis]

No Incarnum? :C

[imperialspectre]

Yeah, so, um, massive damage only ever hurts PCs, because monsters are designed to die anyway but PCs take massive damage saves repeatedly and will eventually roll a 1. Anything that, by design, necessarily screws over the players is *probably* something you want to get out of the game. Myou is, as usual, correct. :)

Other than massive damage and the (weak) SoX effects that have been described, though, there are only a couple feats that let you trigger minor status effects (and a few weapons that do the same). It's one more example of poor design in the "Fighters can't have nice things" department.

[Il_Vec]

Does grappling count? It is kind-of a maybe-save-or-suck. Other than that, those Imperious Command builds I keep hearing about come to mind.

[fryplink]

UMD, im pretty sure with enough ranks in UMD any class can have a SoX,(you can hit me now)

I think SoX's are intentionally scant among non-casters, as non-casters had other roles in the "traditional Party (tank,band-aid,blaster,skill monkey) the casters "blast" with SoX's. That would also explain why they become more common later on.

[Arbitrarity]

Basilisk Mask Totem Meld. Save or be ****ed by Adamantine, to quote the handbook.

That's actually really easy to boost, as well. Dragonborn Mongrelfolk is a good start, and a few levels of Warshaper (by taking, say... a Werebear LA level from SS, which gives Shapechanger subtype), then maybe 3 levels of Master of Masks, dip some save penalizers like Hexblade (for Dark Companion), aaand you can auto-force level appropriate enemies to fail their saves, and get carved up by your team.

[UserClone]

Basilisk Mask Totem Meld. Save or be ****ed by Adamantine, to quote the handbook.

That's actually really easy to boost, as well. Dragonborn Mongrelfolk is a good start, and a few levels of Warshaper (by taking, say... a Werebear LA level from SS, which gives Shapechanger subtype), then maybe 3 levels of Master of Masks, dip some save penalizers like Hexblade (for Dark Companion), aaand you can auto-force level appropriate enemies to fail their saves, and get carved up by your team.

Once you take a level of werebear, you're locked into werebear till the end if its progression.

[Arbitrarity]

See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession.

[Keld Denar]

There is also Three Mountains Strike for a save vs nausia

Standstill is a save vs not move.

Stacking fear effects is a no save, just suck.

[mabriss lethe]

witchslayer PrC, not a caster, capstone ability grants a save vs. AMF effect. pretty nasty little devil if you happen to be able to boost its save high enough.

[Akal Saris]

Poisons have their drawbacks, but it's usually how my non-magical characters get their SoXs going.

At very low levels (1-4) the poison DCs are still pretty strong and you get effects like nauseate, unconsciousness, and stunning for dirt cheap. At mid levels you can get 1-2 of those effects at a DC 20-26 for a much higher effect, and at very high levels you can either knock somebody out through ability damage or pay a ton/fabricate a crowd control poison.

And for another SoD, Pit Fiend Venom's secondary effect is DC 28 fort or die. Fun if you have access to a pit fiend somehow :P

[Zaq]

There are a few non-magical ways to get fear effects going (Dreadful Wrath, Intimidating Strike, Daunting Presence, and just vanilla demoralize leap to mind), and with enough of them, you start fear-stacking.

[Iferus]

How about Anvil of Thunder? Hit with two different weapons to daze for one round.

[The Cat Goddess]

The Reaping Mauler PrC has a death-grapple.

The Arcanopath Monk PrC (Dragon Compendium) has a bunch of anti-caster SoX's.

[Darrin]

Staggering Strike is save vs. stagger.

Boomerang Daze is save vs. daze.

Then there's the various fear-optimization builds... Frightful Presence, Zhentarim Fighter or CW-Samurai with Imperious Command + skill trick + etc.

There are some melee weapon abilities that have save vs. {blah}, although most of them have been nerfed in the MIC. However, they missed one: Torturous in Ghostwalk, +1 enhancement for save vs. stun DC 12, although you can upgrade it to a +2 enhancement and a DC 17.

[Albonor]

Hellreaver has a capstone ability agains evil outsiders: save or blow up. Really. The target blows up in a explosion of light. The hellreaver then does it next round against the next fiend and so on for a while. Great if you have a wizard with enervation who acted the round before to lower the saves.

FCII, probably the most powerful non-cheese PrC for melee characters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm particularly fond of Knock-Down + Knockback. Every time you attack, you get a free trip and a free bull rush. That opponent has to spend a move-action to get up and another move-action to get back into melee, so every time you attack you waste an opponent's next turn.

[Runestar]

It's called dealing more damage than the enemy has hp. Works every time. And no save required.

[mcl01]

I cannot find the Sudden Stunning enhancement. What page is it?

AFB, but I believe it's around p250ish. It's in the new weapon enhancement section along with all the _____ Surges and synergy abilities.

[Kaiyanwang]

To add something to what people said above:

- Staggering Critical (DoTU) target is (surprisingly) staggered on a critical. No save.

- Dragon Compendium has Staggering Blow: save vs stun with bludgeoning weapons crits

- Dragon Magazines have few Eye-gouging and Deafening tactical feats. Not so good, but sorta forerunnes of the current Critical Feats in Pathfinder.

- Epic has Devastating Critical: save vs death on a critical hit with a specific weapon

- Death of enemies is similar, but works against ranger favored enemy with any weapon.

[PId6]

Coup de grace?

It's called dealing more damage than the enemy has hp. Works every time. And no save required.

Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity says hi.