Marshal Aura Stacking

[Defiant]

"All bonuses granted by a marshal's auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other."

I always thought that this was in reference to the same auras from different Marshals not stacking... but could auras from one Marshal not stack?

Does this mean that Master of Tactics does not stack with Motivate Ardor?

It would kind of suck and mean I've been doing it wrong all along, though I can easily just switch to a different major aura. And it hardly seems overpowered to have them stack, given the Marshal's rather unremarkable character options.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

"All bonuses granted by a marshal's auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other."

I always thought that this was in reference to the same auras from different Marshals not stacking... but could auras from one Marshal not stack?

Does this mean that Master of Tactics does not stack with Motivate Ardor?

The thing about not stacking is simply reiterating the basic stacking rules; you can't have two marshals stacking the same aura because a +1 circumstance bonus to attack doesn't stack with a +1 circumstance bonus to attack. A single marshal or multiple marshals can stack auras just fine as long as they add to different things.

[sonofzeal]

The thing about not stacking is simply reiterating the basic stacking rules; you can't have two marshals stacking the same aura because a +1 circumstance bonus to attack doesn't stack with a +1 circumstance bonus to attack. A single marshal or multiple marshals can stack auras just fine as long as they add to different things.

Actually, circumstance bonuses stack just like dodge bonuses.

"A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source."

This case is a specific exception to the "basic stacking rules" you mentioned.

[KillianHawkeye]

Does this mean that Master of Tactics does not stack with Motivate Ardor?

Right, they don't stack because they both provide a circumstance bonus to damage rolls from the same circumstance (essentially, someone yelling and telling them to do it better). Similarly, Demand Fortitude, Force of Will, and Watchful Eye won't stack with Resilient Troops.

You could, however, apply auras that augment different rolls because then stacking will become a nonissue.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source."

Right. The bolded line is the relevant one--they don't stack because a circumstance bonus to attack from an aura is the same as a circumstance bonus to attack from an aura, which is what the line in the marshal auras is pointing out. (I consider the descriptions of dodge bonuses stacking with themselves, inherent bonuses stacking if done in immediate succession, etc. part of the "basic" stacking rules, so apologies if that was unclear.)

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, circumstance bonuses stack just like dodge bonuses.

Since you quoted the rule, I'll simply point out that circumstance bonuses stack just unlike dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses always stack. Circumstance bonuses don't stack if they arise from essentially the same source.

[sonofzeal]

Right. The bolded line is the relevant one--they don't stack because a circumstance bonus to attack from an aura is the same as a circumstance bonus to attack from an aura, which is what the line in the marshal auras is pointing out. (I consider the descriptions of dodge bonuses stacking with themselves, inherent bonuses stacking if done in immediate succession, etc. part of the "basic" stacking rules, so apologies if that was unclear.)

I could imagine two auras both adding to the same thing, if they were different enough in fluff. For example, if one required yelling, and one was more like an automatic aid-another, or something more supernatural.

Really, if we're talking about stacking rules, the one I'd enforce is "coming from the same source", and that's just a general rule for all bonuses. I believe even Dodge bonuses don't stack if they're coming from the same source... but the wording is ambiguous, so I'm willing to grant the point.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I could imagine two auras both adding to the same thing, if they were different enough in fluff. For example, if one required yelling, and one was more like an automatic aid-another, or something more supernatural.

Fluff differences are irrelevant when it comes to stacking; you can describe the auras however you want, but mechanically it's still the same source. That's like saying two morale bonuses should stack because one's coming from a bard singing at you and the other is coming from a sense of happiness instilled in you by a spell.

[sonofzeal]

Fluff differences are irrelevant when it comes to stacking; you can describe the auras however you want, but mechanically it's still the same source. That's like saying two morale bonuses should stack because one's coming from a bard singing at you and the other is coming from a sense of happiness instilled in you by a spell.

Moral bonuses never stack.

IMO, the reason for the specific comment under circumstance bonuses is because they cover a lot of things that don't give listed bonuses, like holding on to something while balancing, or having studied a fencer's combat style in the past, stuff that falls outside the rules but should give you a bonus. What it's saying is you can't double-dip.

And IMO, the reason for the Marshal line is to prevent five marshals all using the same aura on one person to give them ridiculous numbers. That'd otherwise be legal (different sources, since they're different marshals), so it required a specific exception. If not for that line, by Stacking Rules I'd say it'd work.

[dextercorvia]

This thread reminds me that I always wanted to run an encounter where each enemy had a level of marshal with a different aura active.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Moral bonuses never stack.

That's my point. Fluff differences don't matter, because then any bonuses could be justified into stacking, and that's why we have stacking rules in the first place.

And IMO, the reason for the Marshal line is to prevent five marshals all using the same aura on one person to give them ridiculous numbers. That'd otherwise be legal (different sources, since they're different marshals), so it required a specific exception. If not for that line, by Stacking Rules I'd say it'd work.

I'd characterize "marshal aura" as a single source regardless, since "There is a marshal granting you a bonus to attacks with his aura" falls solidly under the similar circumstance clause.

[Keld Denar]

This thread reminds me that I always wanted to run an encounter where each enemy had a level of marshal with a different aura active.

There are creatures in the MMIV, soemthing about elemental magi or something, that have a type of community rule regarding saves. Give one of them levels in Paladin and Hexblade, then have 3 others with him that have the 3 saving throw auras each up. That way one of them has essentially 3x Cha to all saves vs spells, which means they all have 3x Cha to saves. Brutal.

[sonofzeal]

I'd characterize "marshal aura" as a single source regardless, since "There is a marshal granting you a bonus to attacks with his aura" falls solidly under the similar circumstance clause.

Let's say one character had to balance across something, and two people who can fly are there to provide stability on either side. Both uses Aid Another, which refers to Favourable Conditions, which gives a +2 Circumstance Bonus. Two different people are helping in the same way, and the bonuses would almost certainly stack.

If "there is a flying person helping you balance across the ledge" stacks, then I'd say "there is a marshal granting you a bonus to attacks" would also likely stack... if not for the specific exception in the Marshal rules. And it's a good exception, I think it should be there. But I also think it's necessary to prevent that kind of abuse.

[QuantumSteve]

And IMO, the reason for the Marshal line is to prevent five marshals all using the same aura on one person to give them ridiculous numbers. That'd otherwise be legal (different sources, since they're different marshals), so it required a specific exception. If not for that line, by Stacking Rules I'd say it'd work.

By that logic, 5 castings of glibness from 5 different wands would stack. The Marshal isn't the source, the aura is.

[sonofzeal]

By that logic, 5 castings of glibness from 5 different wands would stack. The Marshal isn't the source, the aura is.

Except "the same spell cast twice in succession" is called out specifically as something that doesn't stack. That's a different situation, and one that's already covered.

[QuantumSteve]

Except "the same spell cast twice in succession" is called out specifically as something that doesn't stack. That's a different situation, and one that's already covered.

It's a specific example of two things that are the same. Even if the spell came from different casters, it still doesn't stack. If two different Dragon Shaman's use Aura of Power they wouldn't stack because they are the same. If they used two different Auras that gave an untyped bonus to damage, then it would stack because they're different Auras

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Except "the same spell cast twice in succession" is called out specifically as something that doesn't stack. That's a different situation, and one that's already covered.

You don't need a specific note to judge whether something counts as coming from the same source. Same spell, same class ability, same feat, whatever--and in fact Aid Another is specifically called out as stacking with itself, which is an exception to the "nothing from the same source" rule rather than the norm.

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually, since the Marshall has two distinct class features that create an aura (Minor Aura and Major Aura), then I suppose they would not count as being from the same source. In that case, I guess the exception is actually necessary.

[Defiant]

I could imagine two auras both adding to the same thing, if they were different enough in fluff.

Agreed.

This is the way I shall continue using it then (for my games when I DM; although I'll double-check with the DM of the game I'm playing, who is not stringent, so it's a go).

Circumstance bonuses stack exactly because they arise from different circumstances.

"Master of Tactics" is a Marshal directing you to use good tactics to flank and deal extra damage.
"Motivate Ardor" is a Marshal haranguing you to use more intensity in your attacks for extra damage.

They are both auras, so they come from the same type of place. But they're not aura bonuses. They're circumstance bonuses, which can stack if coming from different circumstances.

IMO, the above are two different circumstances.

[KillianHawkeye]

"Master of Tactics" is a Marshal directing you to use good tactics to flank and deal extra damage.
"Motivate Ardor" is a Marshal haranguing you to use more intensity in your attacks for extra damage.

They are both auras, so they come from the same type of place. But they're not aura bonuses. They're circumstance bonuses, which can stack if coming from different circumstances.

IMO, the above are two different circumstances.

I guess it all depends on your active definitions of "different" and "circumstances." Personally, I view some guy yelling at you to make you do a better job to be a single circumstance, but by all means do whatever works best for you!

[veovius]

I don't know about you, but 1 person yelling at me to do better, isn't as effective as 5 people yelling at me to do better ;)

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't know about you, but 1 person yelling at me to do better, isn't as effective as 5 people yelling at me to do better ;)

Really? It usually just pisses me off more.

[sonofzeal]

We do have to acknowledge through this that Marshal auras don't really correspond very well to anything in the real world. You can't yell at people during a fight to make them dodge better. So asking what would happen if five people did that is kind of a moot point.