Dark Sun [4e]: Initial Thoughts

[Shatteredtower]

It may be premature to say this, but balance seems much better thought out than it was in 2e, before or after Skills & Powers. I'm also glad to see they've undone the Denning damage to the world, resetting history to the way it was shortly after the opening events in Tyr, rather than over a decade later.

The reknown point system has its merits. Is it enough to make up for the dearth of cash prizes? We'll see, though we've yet to earn enough to get even a one-time bonus on an untrained skill check.

The system does feature the only critical failure rule I've ever liked, because it's focused on giving players a potentially useful choice.

Module design needs work, as it's thus far completely inflexible on the option of allowing us to take extended rests. I'm fine with those having consequences on later events, but being told, *You can't,* violates principles laid down in both DMGs. It was still fun, but that was a needless irritation.

[Tiki Snakes]

Eh, that's more a 'DnD Encounters' thing than Dark Sun related, I suspect. (The Rests thing.)

[Gralamin]

The Full Campaign setting is not released, so I imagine whatever info you have is from Encounters. I'll wait for the full book before evaluating it.

[Shatteredtower]

Eh, that's more a 'DnD Encounters' thing than Dark Sun related, I suspect. (The Rests thing.)

Probably. Not the best way to introduce a system if it drastically contradicts a major principle for running a game well, though.

I wasn't thrilled with one of the counter-intuitive solutions we learned about after last night's encounter. Again, an Encounters thing, but as that's being used to give a first impression of the world, I think it's a fair point to make.

It's still better than half of the 2e material, designed by people that never paid attention to their own rules.

[Shatteredtower]

The Full Campaign setting is not released, so I imagine whatever info you have is from Encounters. I'll wait for the full book before evaluating it.

Maybe you missed the part about initial impressions? Still wrong, since half of it comes from a review of the Free RPG Day module. I found that was generally more flexibly paced and better justified when it was not, but it's still a factor that may be deliberate for a world always portrayed as less forgiving than most. The character cards were laid out better with the Encounters set, but that's not relevant to the main game.

I doubt much will change with campaign background, however, and it's pretty unlikely they'll change that critical failure rule. (It's that good.) I haven't seen enough to comment on the defiler rules, but the mechanics mentioned for the one in the free module seemed balanced, even if there's a good chance a party might eventually kill you for using them.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'm also glad to see they've undone the Denning damage to the world, resetting history to the way it was shortly after the opening events in Tyr, rather than over a decade later.

Out of interest, what was the "Denning damage"? I am not familiar with Dark Sun but know how he damages other franchises.

[Lhurgyof]

I doubt much will change with campaign background, however, and it's pretty unlikely they'll change that critical failure rule. (It's that good.) I haven't seen enough to comment on the defiler rules, but the mechanics mentioned for the one in the free module seemed balanced, even if there's a good chance a party might eventually kill you for using them.

Are you kidding? They changed a lot!
First off, there's a tiefling. A tiefling in a world where interplanar travel is all but impossible. (Only Dregoth can access other planes)
And second off, what the hell is the deal with there being Goblins? Daskinor Goblin Death killed ever single one. On the whole planet. Gone. And they too would be unable to get here via planar travel.

It's total BS what their doing to my favorite game world. And whenever I try to say anything the party just tells me "It's 4th edition. They change stuff because they can."

[Lhurgyof]

Out of interest, what was the "Denning damage"? I am not familiar with Dark Sun but know how he damages other franchises.

He didn't really ruin the game that much, he wrote a book series on Dark Sun wherein some characters killed major NPC's. And then they came out with a revised campaign setting to go along with it.
Good book series, bad idea to incorporate it into the game.

[Randalor]

I've been playing in the weekly encounters game. Thankfully, our GM is playing a bit looser with the module, he switched out the goblins for another race that was in the setting, and we've actually found a way to get one person to have an extended rest, albit at the cost of an automatic fail on a skillcheck.

[Renchard]

Are you kidding? They changed a lot!
First off, there's a tiefling. A tiefling in a world where interplanar travel is all but impossible. (Only Dregoth can access other planes)

I wasn't aware they had realized the back story of tieflings in Dark Sun yet. 4e tieflings aren't the offspring of fiends and mortals, after all.

And second off, what the hell is the deal with there being Goblins? Daskinor Goblin Death killed ever single one. On the whole planet. Gone. And they too would be unable to get here via planar travel.

Maybe in 4e, that didn't happen. But no, you're right. This change obviously turns Dark Sun from a cruel desert world into Candy Land.

It's total BS what their doing to my favorite game world. And whenever I try to say anything the party just tells me "It's 4th edition. They change stuff because they can."

Your party says that because they're right. There's a point where being a fan becomes rabid fanboyism, and you're inching pretty close to the "Raccoon in the morning, take warning" stage.

[Satyr]

I am not familiar with the free preview Dark Sun stuff, but there is a valid point to Lhurgyof's criticism, even if it might seem like nitpicking: Dark Sun has always been a very limited and small setting with a very specific and local appearance and unique ideas.
The (re-)introduction of goblins, tieflings and the like - which had no place in the setting, and as far as I can tell, weren't needed either - makes it more likely that the setting turns out to be yet another kitchen sink with only little variation and this would hurt the more unique feeling of the setting and thus its overall appeal as the distinct character of the setting would have to make place for the general standard fare. If this is the case -and right now this is only speculation - this does not enrichen the setting - it hurts its particular feeling.

[Draz74]

Yeah, different settings are actually interesting largely because they can pick different pieces of the standard D&D amalgamation to leave out.

And that's a disadvantage WotC settings face: they're kind of under a lot of pressure to preserve as many races and power sources as possible.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Let's not overreact, guys. It's just Encounters. Let's wait for the final product to judge Dark Sun 4E overall, shall we?

P.s.: Title is a bit misleading. Some may think you have the actual Dark Sun books (even if they're not even printed yet).

[Kurald Galain]

I would expect 4E Dark Sun to contain all the PHB races, but probably not the Forgotten Realms Drow and Genasi, nor the Eberron Warforged. That's pretty much what they did to the other settings, after all. I'm not sure this is a big deal; individual DMs can always leave out what races they don't like.

Of course, if WOTC decides to release Living Dark Sun, there's going to be a riot...

[Satyr]

Introducing Dragonborn in Dark Sun would be a great way to affirm that the 4th edition setting is Dark Sun in name only.

But yes, all this speculation is a bit premature.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Won't people stop with the "x in name only"? It's no different than "4th edition as D&D in name only" thing. It's insulting to those who like Dark Sun and decide that it can be Dark Sun even with dragonborn. Maybe you don't consider it Dark Sun anymore. But it's your opinion; it's not a fact.

The Dragonborn will basically be Dray, an original Dark Sun "species engineered by the Sorcerer-King of Giustenal, Dregoth, to have draconic traits."

[Touchy]

Won't people stop with the "x in name only"? It's no different than "4th edition as D&D in name only" thing. It's insulting to those who like Dark Sun and decide that it can be Dark Sun even with dragonborn. Maybe you don't consider it Dark Sun anymore. But it's your opinion; it's not a fact.

The Dragonborn will basically be Dray, an original Dark Sun "species engineered by the Sorcerer-King of Giustenal, Dregoth, to have draconic traits."

Seeing as the fact that Goliath's are now Half-Giants, Tieflings will probably be a different race.

Kudos if I can see them implement all their races in Dark Sun.

[Sir_Elderberry]

/tg/ had a link to a blog post where they explained how eladrin worked into the setting, but I can't find it now.

[Mando Knight]

/tg/ had a link to a blog post where they explained how eladrin worked into the setting, but I can't find it now.

Probably like they are in FR: "oh, they're just the magicky elves."

[Kurald Galain]

Introducing Dragonborn in Dark Sun would be a great way to affirm that the 4th edition setting is Dark Sun in name only.

Perhaps they're Dragonborn In Name Only

(edit) It has been officially confirmed that 4EDS will have Dragonborn. I can't find an official source on tieflings, though.

Probably like they are in FR: "oh, they're just the magicky elves."

Well, FR did have four elf races in earlier editions...

[BobTheDog]

Well, FR did have fourty elf races in earlier editions...

FIFY.

[hamishspence]

I've seen quite a few people complaining that 3rd ed made a big mistake when it created a Wood elf race for Faerun, and insisting that elf hybridization can't create a new elf race- it's only Sun Elves, Moon Elves, and Green (Wild) Elves.

(this is elf subraces besides drow)

I'm not sure how they felt about the Star Elves in Unapproachable East.

[Lhurgyof]

Perhaps they're Dragonborn In Name Only

(edit) It has been officially confirmed that 4EDS will have Dragonborn. I can't find an official source on tieflings, though.


Well, FR did have four elf races in earlier editions...

Ah, ****. Dragonborn too?
Well, them as dray would work. But do dragonborn get int bonuses? I'm not a big 4e player, so I wouldn't know.

But yeah, my favorite part of Dark Sun is that it was different. Everything was different from regular D&D. The alignment lines are blurred, the halflings aren't furry-footed happy fat asses, they're friggin' cannibals! And the half-giants can change from happy and fun to hateful and evil in a day.

But on a different note- they were called "Sand goblins". So I'm pretty sure that either WotC decided to just do whatever they want with Dark Sun or that the Encounters team is quite unfimiliar with the game world.

And to the people claiming I'm a rabid fanboy- the genocide of almost every race on Athas was a very important part of the story, so I'm pretty pissed that they just decided to ignore the whole plot of the gameworld.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Ah, ****. Dragonborn too?
Well, them as dray would work. But do dragonborn get int bonuses? I'm not a big 4e player, so I wouldn't know.

But yeah, my favorite part of Dark Sun is that it was different. Everything was different from regular D&D. The alignment lines are blurred, the halflings aren't furry-footed happy fat asses, they're friggin' cannibals! And the half-giants can change from happy and fun to hateful and evil in a day.

But on a different note- they were called "Sand goblins". So I'm pretty sure that either WotC decided to just do whatever they want with Dark Sun or that the Encounters team is quite unfimiliar with the game world.

And to the people claiming I'm a rabid fanboy- the genocide of almost every race on Athas was a very important part of the story, so I'm pretty pissed that they just decided to ignore the whole plot of the gameworld.

Bolded part is at least still true.

[Shatteredtower]

Are you kidding? They changed a lot!

Sorry, wasn't clear there. What I mean to say is that I doubt they're going to change much of the background they've established for themselves within 4e from now until release. In many ways, it's not the same world it was in 2E, though that was at least three different worlds within one edition, as far as I'm concerned.

(I never signed on for the nonsense they introduced about Path Dexter and Path Sinister magic, the nerfing of ability scores so that a 20 was sometimes worth less than an 18 elsewhere, or the complete hash Skills and Powers made of psionics. The ideas for the Kreen, lifeshaper halflings, and the Last Sea were interesting, but the game pretty much abandoned the Valley of Tyr by the end. The Dragon was a big deal at one time and then some executive order had it eliminated by background events. Giustenal also had its appeal, but I wouldn't mind a different approach to the issue of the Dray.)

First off, there's a tiefling. A tiefling in a world where interplanar travel is all but impossible.

The world was funny about things like that. Powers that summoned extraplanar creatures were never actually eliminated from the game. There was all sorts of discussion about how they wouldn't work for players in later books, but the mechanics of it were... lacking.

According to the Free RPG Day material, this version of the world will be a setting in which the Primordials won the God War. I doubt they'll change that this late in the game, though why the world didn't cease to be shortly after that wasn't answered. Maybe the primordials took a different attitude to the project than was reported on the "official (divine) channels" --at least as far as this world's concerned. As for abyssal influence, I don't find it antithematic to a world that saw the corruption of Rajaat's tamperings mutate some humans to display one or more atypical traits.

And second off, what the hell is the deal with there being Goblins? Daskinor Goblin Death killed ever single one. On the whole planet. Gone.

Hamanu slaughtered all the trolls, but one of my favourite Dragon adventures for Dark Sun featured an encounter with one last troll. Likewise, Keltis supposedly killed all the lizard men, but lied. I'd be okay with a decision to declare certain acts to have been "exaggerated".

Another possibility is that the goblins in question were "place-holder" monsters for something else, as the lizardfolk are for ssurrans at present, at least according to Free RPG Day material. I wouldn't know either way. Still, you can see I have my own pet peeves about the place, so I'm in no position to condemn yours.

I wouldn't be surprised if they decided that goblins were less hassle than aarakocra, a player race that could fly three times faster than anyone else could walk. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if the game took a dim view to the possibility of a race with overland flight as a heroic tier ability.

And they too would be unable to get here via planar travel.

In one of the later modules I read, the githyanki managed it, complete with a mind flayer in tow. Once the mountain's scaled, it's amazing how easily the task can be repeated.

You are right that the "Denning damage" charge is overstating things. I do not blame him for deciding how he wanted to write his stories, though we agree that TSR should not have followed his lead with their entire campaign world. It was bad enough that players were expected to be bystanders in the first major event in the world's transformation, but when they suddenly learn that the rulers of half of the remaining cities and the Dragon also get killed off in the background, they tend to feel trivialized.

That said, I will always remember Jeff Grubb's behind the scenes look at The Forgotten Realms comic for the one telephone operator (I believe it was Selune, in fact) telling her caller, "No, Mr. Denning, you may not blow up the moon."

I don't have the rule books for the 4e setting, of course, and I'd understandably be in a lot of trouble if I was leaking anything that wasn't already publically available. A lot hasn't been revealed. We can still be pretty sure that Athasian halflings are still nasty pieces of work, the elves are difficult people for outsiders to trust, the kreen still hold to a pack mentality, and the gods aren't granting anyone any spells. Trust still appears to be a more difficult commodity to acquire than steel, which is still scarce here.

The promotional module used goliaths for half-giants. Sure, why not? The only thing that needs tweaking are the fluff elements, same as for the elves and halflings. I'm not sold on what they mention about the eladrin's place in this world, but I'm willing to wait and see what they have in mind -- or if they ultimately decided it was best to remove them altogether. Perhaps they'll take the place of the pyreen?

I'm pretty sure they'll keep the reknown point mechanic, though they'll likely tweak it by the time the game set's released. What I've seen of gladitorial combat in the free module shows that a few of the designers have a few nice ideas for gladitorial games that are about more than just combat, without being too complicated.

As I said, though, the big thing that impressed me about what I've seen were the rules that gave players options to reroll failure in some cases, if they were willing to pay another kind of penalty for the chance. These ideas helped get across the hazards of defiling magic and makeshift weaponry pretty well in a way that gives players more opportunity to shine by letting them raise the stakes with certain failures.

[Gralamin]

I am not familiar with the free preview Dark Sun stuff, but there is a valid point to Lhurgyof's criticism, even if it might seem like nitpicking: Dark Sun has always been a very limited and small setting with a very specific and local appearance and unique ideas.
The (re-)introduction of goblins, tieflings and the like - which had no place in the setting, and as far as I can tell, weren't needed either - makes it more likely that the setting turns out to be yet another kitchen sink with only little variation and this would hurt the more unique feeling of the setting and thus its overall appeal as the distinct character of the setting would have to make place for the general standard fare. If this is the case -and right now this is only speculation - this does not enrichen the setting - it hurts its particular feeling.

The Insider articles related to Dark Sun explained why they were trying to allow everything in (other then trying to avoid people not buying other supplements because they play Dark Sun): Its easier for a DM who is new to a setting to take out things then it is to add them in. If you want to go classic Dark Sun, restricting the available classes and races, it shouldn't be to hard.

Now, I don't know about the monster races that were killed of (such as goblins). I know they do not appear in Bloodsand Arena. I know nothing of Encounters. So whether thats actually in the setting, or just the encounters team being stupid, we will see. I for one am looking forward to it.

[Somebloke]

From what I understand of the Tieflings, Dragonborn and Eldarin:

- The Tiefling are some sort of wandering race, similar to the elves. No comments on how they came about but I suppose mutation and the defiling will have a place in their backstory.

- Dragonborn are some version of Dray that left the Dragon some time ago. They are a merchant race, treacherous and charismatic, and operate from fortified enclaves in the wastes.

- The Eldarin are a bit like haflings in that they tend to dislike outsiders. The Feywild has been changed from a realm of plenty into tiny isolated pockets of wasteland where the rules of nature are warped and dreamlike (or nightmarish). These are hidden by the Eldarin, who have abandoned magic entirely and focus exclusively on psionics. The impression I got was like Alladin's cave or 'pocket' Narnias, except that instead of talking beavers or immense treasure you get a big fat serving of psychic torture and then death.

[Corvus]

The goblins turned up in Encounters as the encounter designer didn't really know enough about Dark Sun history and he wanted a race of small monsters for the fight. Most knowledgeable DMs re-skinned them straight away.

Dragonborn are Dray in DS4e, the lizardman race created by Dregoth. Not sure if they are meant to be the failed first generation or the more successful second. The new dragonfear variant dragonborn (swap dragonbreath for a fear attack) would work much better for Dray.

The Eladrin are being skinned as some sort of djinn, a new concept in DS. The Athas Feywild has been reduced to a few scattered pockets of magical ultra-deserts, even more inhospitable than regular Athas. The Eladrin know that defiling magic has caused the destruction of Athas and through it the feywild and use psionics and not arcane magic now - and are generally only seen when they go out kill arcane users. its an intriguing idea, though whether as an old school DS fan I'd use it I'm not sure yet.

The tieflings - well, I wouldn't allow them. Nor deva, half-orcs, warforged, shardminds, wilden, minotaurs and a bunch of other races. If you do want to use them, then the Pristine Tower is your friend.

[BobTheDog]

The tieflings - well, I wouldn't allow them. Nor deva, half-orcs, warforged, shardminds, wilden, minotaurs and a bunch of other races. If you do want to use them, then the Pristine Tower is your friend.

I see a lot of this "No tieflings" feeling. Is this based on their old fluff (watered-down half-fiends), on their Planescape origins or on their new fluff (greedy humans who made a deal with the Devil)?

I understand you cannot answer for the whole DS fanbase, but I don't really see the point in banning a mechanical concept because of something that will, most likely, be adapted to the setting.

[Shatteredtower]

Minotaurs do bear a little resemblance to beast-headed giants, so there are ways it could work. It's hard to say what the designers plan to do about giants anyway.

Deva and half-orcs shouldn't be too hard to adapt. You could even use their abilities for alternative humans, as long as it's based on background, not region.

As for gnomes, it's funny that they bore some resemblance to Athasian halflings at times. Before later rules overturned it, they were even allowed to become illusionists. (It makes more sense than giving Athasian halflings a thieving bonus.)

That brings up another major change: we should expect all races allowed to be able to play any permitted class. Half-giants and dwarves weren't allowed to play wizards and such back then. It messes up the reason Rajaat gave for picking human, not halfling, champions, which is kind of a bigger deal than letting tieflings play.