Question about the feat "Sword of the arcane order"

[Mystic Muse]

{Scrubbed. Please don't link to places that post non-OGL material without express authorization to do so.}

I don't have the source material so I can't check. How does the feat work for the wizard spells? Do I just get to choose any spell from the wizard list from each slot or do I have a specific amount of spells known? Or, is the feat as vague as that in the source material as it is here?
{Scrubbed}

[Rannil]

You need a spellbook to prepare. So your limit is your spellbook. Or someone else spellbook for that matter.

Not sure about OGL but I do know sites as these copy the exact text, so in book it's just as vague I presume.

[The Cat Goddess]

The text in the source material isn't vague at all...

If you're already a Wizard (and thus, already have a spell book), then you can prep the Wizard Spells you know in your Paladin or Ranger spell slots.

If you don't have a spell book, you can borrow someone else's spell book and prep the spells in there in your Paladin or Ranger spell slots.

If you find/loot/buy a spell book, you can use that.

Just having this feat doesn't give you Wizard Spells known... but it does allow you to get Wizard Spells.

Of course, by RAW you don't need to use Read Magic to read anyone else's spell book... which, ordinarily, a Wizard would.

[Mystic Muse]

So, I have to have the spells in a spellbook? I don't get any spells known when I take it unless I have one with the spells in it?

[The Cat Goddess]

So, I have to have the spells in a spellbook? I don't get any spells known when I take it unless I have one with the spells in it?

The feat does not give you any spells, ever. You do not get new spells known as you level up (unlike a Wizard). You have to buy/borrow/loot spell books to get Wizard Spells to memorize.

Edit: Oh, and it makes you even more MAD, because now you need Wis for your Paladin or Ranger spells... and Int for your Wizard spells.

[Rannil]

The feat does not give you any spells, ever. You do not get new spells known as you level up (unlike a Wizard). You have to buy/borrow/loot spell books to get Wizard Spells to memorize.

Edit: Oh, and it makes you even more MAD, because now you need Wis for your Paladin or Ranger spells... and Int for your Wizard spells.

Or dual class into a wizard. I am thinking gish builds. Else you wouldn't go for it anyways.

But Ranger/Paladin get spells "late" compared the preferable low level dibs they normally are.

[Mystic Muse]

The feat does not give you any spells, ever. You do not get new spells known as you level up (unlike a Wizard). You have to buy/borrow/loot spell books to get Wizard Spells to memorize.

Edit: Oh, and it makes you even more MAD, because now you need Wis for your Paladin or Ranger spells... and Int for your Wizard spells.

Okay, thanks for this. I think my DM may appreciate knowing this.

And I kind of put my intelligence above my wisdom anyway.....

EDIT: I'm using a homebrew Paladin. The class is anything but a dip at this point. Unless twenty levels is considered a dip now.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In that case I'll direct your attention to [{Scrubbed}Battle Blessing[/URL], though it wouldn't apply to any Wizard spells you prepare in your Paladin spell slots.

[Mystic Muse]

In that case I'll direct your attention to [{Scrubbed} Battle_Blessing"]Battle Blessing[/URL], though it wouldn't apply to any Wizard spells you prepare in your Paladin spell slots.

This would be more effective if there weren't a maximum of 6 spells I'd ever want to cast as a Paladin. Granted I haven't looked at anything other than the spell compendium and the SRD but I doubt I'll find anything that's very useful. Most of the useful spells I can replicate with my class features.

EDIT: And at a certain point, 5 of those spells will be pretty much obsolete.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Favor, Bull's Strength, Dispel Magic, Daylight, Death Ward, Draconic Might, Silverbeard, Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical, etc. all quickened for free, plus you can use a Lesser Rod of Extend on most of those. Be sure to get enough cross-class ranks in Spellcraft to take Practiced Spellcaster, since otherwise it's only going to be half your class level.

[Mystic Muse]

Divine Favor,

A +3 attack and damage bonus? At level 18? Is it really that useful?

Bull's Strength

One of the ones that becomes obsolete.

Dispel Magic

Replicated better by a class feature,

Daylight

I don't really see the use of this. Care to point it out?

Death Ward

I'll give you this one. Mostly useful on Allies though since in two levels I'll be immune to death effects

Draconic Might

again, it becomes obsolete.

Silverbeard,

The DM makes us roleplay diplomacy and +2 AC isn't worth much.

Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical, etc.

Replicated better by a class feature.

all quickened for free, plus you can use a Lesser Rod of Extend on most of those. Be sure to get enough cross-class ranks in Spellcraft to take Practiced Spellcaster, since otherwise it's only going to be half your class level.

If I was going to take practiced spellcaster (Which I might) I'd use it to boost wizard spells. Especially considering there's not a spell here (except maybe divine favor) that I'd use that relies on caster level. Oh, and the DM doesn't use cross class skills.

EDIT: Here's the class

Double edit: I also can't cast 4th level Paladin spells due to my wisdom score being 13.

[Greenish]

Or dual class into a wizard. I am thinking gish builds. Else you wouldn't go for it anyways.

What gish build goes 4+ levels to ranger?

And for that matter, why wouldn't a ranger go for SotAO if she can spare the int? Wizard spells are awesome. Bonus points for being a mystic ranger for better spell access. More bonus points for being a wildshape ranger to reduce MAD.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: There's nothing inherently wrong with the discussion in this thread. But please don't link to places that provide full text of non-OGL or copyrighted content without authorization. If a single feat is the subject of discussion here, it's actually better to provide that full text as part of your discussion rather than link to somewhere that is wholesale infringing on a copyrighted work.

[hangedman1984]

sounds like this feat would be nifty for paladin or ranger/wizard gestalt gish

[The Cat Goddess]

1) Getting a +Wis item is easy, so casting 4th level Paladin Spells is easily possible.

2) Quickened Healing Spells are insanely useful... LoH takes a Standard Action.

3) Some of the Complete Champion spells are useful... same with the PH2 spells.

[Delivery Ninja]

sounds like this feat would be nifty for paladin or ranger/wizard gestalt gish

My first thought was the Mystic Ranger, myself. Seems like a good basis for a gish build of some sort, especially since Sword of the Arcane Order can technically qualify you for arcane spellcasting PRCs...

[taltamir]

Sheriff of Moddingham: There's nothing inherently wrong with the discussion in this thread. But please don't link to places that provide full text of non-OGL or copyrighted content without authorization. If a single feat is the subject of discussion here, it's actually better to provide that full text as part of your discussion rather than link to somewhere that is wholesale infringing on a copyrighted work.

Basically, GITP does not want to be sued for perpetuating piracy. Legally speaking hosting content without author permission is piracy; WOTC does not give anyone permission to host any content that is not OGL. As such, said content is almost certain to be pirated. Legally speaking, any forum which allows linking to such content is complicit. Courts have ruled against mere linking to infringing material in forums.

Since GITP does not want to be shut down, it must police its boards to prevent the linking of all infringing content.

[Mystic Muse]

Basically, GITP does not want to be sued for perpetuating piracy. Legally speaking hosting content without author permission is piracy; WOTC does not give anyone permission to host any content that is not OGL. As such, said content is almost certain to be pirated. Legally speaking, any forum which allows linking to such content is complicit. Courts have ruled against mere linking to infringing material in forums.

Since GITP does not want to be shut down, it must police its boards to prevent the linking of all infringing content.

Thank you for the info Taltamir. I've emailed WOTC about the site.

EDIT: I only thought it was okay because I've seen other people link the site on here. I'll report any posts I see of it from now on.

[The Cat Goddess]

My first thought was the Mystic Ranger, myself. Seems like a good basis for a gish build of some sort, especially since Sword of the Arcane Order can technically qualify you for arcane spellcasting PRCs...

Heck, wouldn't it qualify you for Theurge classes?

[Delivery Ninja]

Heck, wouldn't it qualify you for Theurge classes?

You'd meet the spellcasting requirements, at least. Though I wouldn't blame the DM if he forced you to actually get a spellbook and put some second-level spells in it before allowing you to take levels in say, Mystic Theurge, for example.

Hmm. I wonder if this would make a good entry for Geomancer? I know it's normally a terrible prestige class, but you aren't losing any caster levels with Sword of the Arcane Order...

[Mystic Muse]

Wouldn't the theurge be a really lousy PRC since you can't get anything other than 4th level spells as a Paladin?

Also, since swift healing spells are kind of nice, I might ask my DM if I could pay for a dark chaos shuffle or some similar method of retraining feats. I have two feats I'm never going to use (Both I got from the homebrew class) and one of them I'm already retraining for the dragon wings feat once I become a dragonborn.

[The Cat Goddess]

Wouldn't the theurge be a really lousy PRC since you can't get anything other than 4th level spells as a Paladin?

Also, since swift healing spells are kind of nice, I might ask my DM if I could pay for a dark chaos shuffle or some similar method of retraining feats. I have two feats I'm never going to use (Both I got from the homebrew class) and one of them I'm already retraining for the dragon wings feat once I become a dragonborn.

Works a little better for Mystic Ranger... And, by RAW, every level would increase your spellcasting by 2, since one class gives you both Arcane and Divine spellcasting. So only a few levels would be needed.

[Mystic Muse]

Works a little better for Mystic Ranger... And, by RAW, every level would increase your spellcasting by 2, since one class gives you both Arcane and Divine spellcasting. So only a few levels would be needed.

So, enter it at level 8 and get 4th level spells by 11 is the idea?

[Delivery Ninja]

Works a little better for Mystic Ranger... And, by RAW, every level would increase your spellcasting by 2, since one class gives you both Arcane and Divine spellcasting. So only a few levels would be needed.

...Actually, by RAW, a Ranger or Paladin with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat has no arcane spellcasting to advance. Said Ranger or Paladin can qualify for the prestige class by virtue of being able to cast Arcane spells, but the spells are cast from his ordinary divine spellcasting slots.

Or that's how I interpret it, anyway. The feat could definitely use some clarification in this department, I think.

[The Cat Goddess]

...Actually, by RAW, a Ranger or Paladin with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat has no arcane spellcasting to advance. Said Ranger or Paladin can qualify for the prestige class by virtue of being able to cast Arcane spells, but the spells are cast from his ordinary divine spellcasting slots.

Or that's how I interpret it, anyway. The feat could definitely use some clarification in this department, I think.

Not exactly... the Theurge advances the Arcane Spellcasting Class and the Divine Spellcasting Class.

SotAO makes your Paladin or Ranger (a Divine Spellcasting Class) able to cast Arcane Spells (and they are, by Feat Text, Arcane Spells)... thus, your Paladin or Ranger is now both an Arcane Spellcasting Class and a Divine Spellcasting Class at the same time.

Of course, the same Cheese can be applied to a Factotum, by RAW...

[Delivery Ninja]

Not exactly... the Theurge advances the Arcane Spellcasting Class and the Divine Spellcasting Class.

SotAO makes your Paladin or Ranger (a Divine Spellcasting Class) able to cast Arcane Spells (and they are, by Feat Text, Arcane Spells)... thus, your Paladin or Ranger is now both an Arcane Spellcasting Class and a Divine Spellcasting Class at the same time.

Of course, the same Cheese can be applied to a Factotum, by RAW...

Well, so long as we're getting into things no DM is likely to permit, I might as well point out something interesting about the feat itself. To start off with the exact wording of its benefits:

You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard).
These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook.
If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.

...Notice how the feat says you can prepare Wizard spells, but makes no mention of any ability to actually cast them?

[Mystic Muse]

...Notice how the feat says you can prepare Wizard spells, but makes no mention of any ability to actually cast them?

This is sort of like how a Monk isn't actually proficient with their fists. Sure you can rule it like that, but it'll end with the DM having a book colliding with his face and he'll deserve it.

[Delivery Ninja]

This is sort of like how a Monk isn't actually proficient with their fists. Sure you can rule it like that, but it'll end with the DM having a broken nose and he'll deserve it.

And this is why I mentioned it as something no DM is likely to permit. Nobody wants a broken nose, after all.

[Mystic Muse]

And this is why I mentioned it as something no DM is likely to permit. Nobody wants a broken nose, after all.

No, nobody does. Or at least nobody sane.

[The Cat Goddess]

Well, so long as we're getting into things no DM is likely to permit, I might as well point out something interesting about the feat itself. To start off with the exact wording of its benefits:

Text.

...Notice how the feat says you can prepare Wizard spells, but makes no mention of any ability to actually cast them?

Note that the text of the feat implies that your caster level is 0, unless you also have Wizard levels...

So, really, sometimes you have to RaI.

And, as a DM myself, I would allow my interpretation for the regular Paladin & Ranger classes (to get improved casting from Theurge), but not for Mystic Ranger since their caster level is equal to their class level.