[3.5] Eldritch Blast Progression

[Tedesche]

Just curious...I've been trying to find a rationale for EB's damage progression slowing down in the latter half of the warlock's career, only to resume its +1d6/2 levels rate in epic levels, but I can't find one. It was never changed via errata as far as I can tell, so does anyone know why this is the case? It seems to me that making it follow the same progression as the rogue's sneak attack ability makes more sense.

[DragoonWraith]

As far as I can tell, there isn't anyone out there who doesn't think that this is stupid, if they even realize it - lots of people assume it just is +1d6/2 levels...

[Mystic Muse]

Just curious...I've been trying to find a rationale for EB's damage progression slowing down in the latter half of the warlock's career, only to resume its +1d6/2 levels rate in epic levels, but I can't find one. It was never changed via errata as far as I can tell, so does anyone know why this is the case? It seems to me that making it follow the same progression as the rogue's sneak attack ability makes more sense.

Yes, it does make more sense. I don't know why this is the case. However, unlike the rogue, the Warlock has a PRC that if you choose the right feat, gives you an extra 6d6 damage on EB per round in 3 levels. It's called hellfire warlock and is from fiendish codex two I think.

[Tinydwarfman]

Because wizards thinks that anything that is at-will is insanely overpowered, and needs to be absolute crap. Seriously.

[Tedesche]

...the Warlock has a PRC that if you choose the right feat, gives you an extra 6d6 damage on EB per round in 3 levels. It's called hellfire warlock and is from fiendish codex two I think.

I am aware of the Hellfire Warlock PrC, thanks—as well as the requisite Binder level dip. Still doesn't make much sense though; an extra d6 of damage isn't a gamebreaker.

Because wizards thinks that anything that is at-will is insanely overpowered, and needs to be absolute crap. Seriously.

Mhm...but I'm sure they're mum when it comes to reserve spell feats....

[Mystic Muse]

I am aware of the Hellfire Warlock PrC, thanks—as well as the requisite Binder level dip. Still doesn't make much sense though; an extra d6 of damage isn't a gamebreaker.

Or is it? DUNH DUNH DUNH!No, no it isn't.

You could supplement the Warlock with an arcane spellcasting class and going into eldritch theurge from complete mage. It's not a great solution but it might work.

Alternatively, ask your DM to change the progression. If they're reasonable they won't consider it that big of a deal unless 10d6 is considered overpowered in your group.

[Douglas]

Mhm...but I'm sure they're mum when it comes to reserve spell feats....

The reserve feats came out much later than the Warlock, and WotC is actually capable of learning. There's still a lot they got wrong, but by Complete Mage they had at least figured out that at-will wasn't as powerful as they used to think.

[DragoonWraith]

Ehh.... Reserve Feats are still very weak. I'd argue that they're still underpowered and Wizards hadn't learned all that much. The Warlock seemed to be doing better than those, honestly.

[Mongoose87]

It's probably so that Rogues don't feel so bad about having to jump through hoops to get their d6s.

[Tinydwarfman]

No, by tome of magic they figured out that at-will wasn't as powerful as they thought. (They also figured out that they really suck at making a skill-based magic system, but that's besides the point.)

[Douglas]

Ehh.... Reserve Feats are still very weak. I'd argue that they're still underpowered and Wizards hadn't learned all that much. The Warlock seemed to be doing better than those, honestly.

Ah, but a one feat investment is a whole lot smaller than every class level you've got. For a feat, reserve feats aren't that bad. Warlock at-wills are better, but you have to spend large numbers of class levels specifically to get them with almost no other benefits.

[Tedesche]

It's true, reserve feats aren't that powerful, but they do allow a spellcaster who is normally limited by their number of spells per day to chuck out damage constantly, and still have all those spells at their disposal. As douglas says, for a feat, that's pretty sweet. And might I add that a Wizard has access to 9th level spells at Level 17, meaning he can have a 9th-level acid spell in reserve and use the Acidic Splatter feat to spam 9d6 blasts all day long—something a Warlock has to wait until 20th level to do!

The thing about at-will powers is that their only advantage is the fact that they can be used ad nauseum. If there's only one or two encounters between extended rest periods in a campaign, then casters aren't likely to exhaust their spell slots, and thus don't have to worry about running out. In the old days of D&D, when everything happened in a dungeon, and the wizard's and cleric's spells had to last the entire way through, that was a major concern. That meant fighters were the most reliable source of damage in the party, and if an enemy could be taken out with a broadsword, it wasn't worth wasting a spell on. Nowadays, D&D encounters are much more varied, but comparatively shorter in duration. This is precisely why casters are now considered the top classes in D&D—because the typical game setting has changed, such that the caster's main disadvantage almost never becomes an issue. Being able to use low-level spell-like abilities constantly isn't so impressive when the mage in group gets to replenish his entire arsenal every three battles.

[PId6]

Nowadays, D&D encounters are much more varied, but comparatively shorter in duration. This is precisely why casters are now considered the top classes in D&D—because the typical game setting has changed, such that the caster's main disadvantage almost never becomes an issue.

There's also the fact that you don't even need all that many spells to do what you want. A single well-placed Glitterdust or Solid Fog can pretty much win an encounter (or at least make it easy enough for the Fighter to beat that the Wizard can just sit back and not care). For Clerics, all they need to do is cast Divine Power each battle and go to town. For Druids, they don't even need to cast spells; Wild Shape + Animal Companion = RAWR DIE.

Spells are powerful enough that even having more encounters each day doesn't really hurt the casters all that much.

[Tedesche]

It's not about adding just a couple more encounters each day, it's about adding enough that casters have to actually start being economical about their casting. Once they're in real danger of running out of spells, classes like warlocks and binders have a better chance of sharing the spotlight.

Also, I've always felt that any encounter that is ended/solved with a single spell either a) was an intentionally brief encounter, b) involves a smarter than average player, or b) was created by a dumber than average DM.

We're talking about game balance here. Thankfully, role playing games like D&D allow for nigh-unlimited amounts of creative license, even without bending/breaking the given rules. If adventures are crafted such that spellcasters never come even close to running out of spells, then the game is unbalanced in their favor, pure and simple. But they don't have to be. Warlocks are built for endurance casting, and the benefit of being one comes out when there isn't going to be a rest stop for quite some time, and an army of baddies stands between you and the inn.

[Hague]

Well, there is the Eldritch Disciple, which in one dip can give you the ability to spend a turn attempt to heal someone from over 400 feet away or chain heal, or cast a healing spell in a cone, etc. By the time you get it, Heal should be your spell, but for mass heals, it's not so bad. Also, warlocks get that ability that lets them eat spells that they dispel for temporary hp.

[lightningcat]

The actual reason for the slow down is very simple. In CA it says that the level of the Eldritch Blast is equal to the dice of damage it deals, when they latter changed that with the errata (making it always a 1st level invocation) they didn't change the progression.
Rare as it may be, WotC actually had a reason for their desision, they just realize later it was a bad reason.

[KillianHawkeye]

The actual reason for the slow down is very simple. In CA it says that the level of the Eldritch Blast is equal to the dice of damage it deals, when they latter changed that with the errata (making it always a 1st level invocation) they didn't change the progression.

That is completely wrong.

Originally, the effective spell level of eldritch blast was equal to half the Warlock's level. It had nothing to do with how many d6s you had. Your note about the errata changing it to 1st level is true, but it has nothing to do with the damage progression.

[Runestar]

In CA it says that the level of the Eldritch Blast is equal to the dice of damage it deals

And wizard damage spells typically deal damage equal to caster lvd6 anyways. Going by this guideline, shouldn't a warlock's EB be dealing warlock lvd6 damage?

[Hague]

Reserve Feats are awesome if you have Alacritous Cogitation. As long as you have a <type> spell of your AC level in your spell book and the AC spell slot open, you can use your reserve feat at max level.

[Tedesche]

Killianhawkeye is correct. I believe the reason for the change in the errata was actually that it became impossible to use feats like Quicken/Empower/Maximize SLA with a vanilla eldritch blast, because those feats require the spell-level equivalent of the SLA to be 1/2 your character level minus some number (e.g. 1/2-2 levels for Empower, 1/2-4 for Quicken). If you look at the table on p. 304 of the Monster Manual, you can clearly see that it's impossible to empower a 9th-level SLA until you get into epic levels. So, they made the spell-level equivalent of eldritch blast equal to 1st, with the rationale that warlocks could always overcome arcane defenses like minor/major globe of invulnerability by applying higher-level blast shapes and eldritch essences to it. It makes sense, although it does mean that a warlock pretty much has to take EB modifiers as some of his invocations to be effective against enemy casters, which further restricts the class (albeit in a way the creators had already intended it to be played, but still).

Heh...I don't think making EB's damage progression go up by a d6/level is fair, but I do think it should be the same as it is for sneak attacks. A character being able to chuck endless 10d6 bolts at 19th level is not overpowered—not when mages have spells like disintegrate and meteor swarm, fighters are hitting 5 times a round for 2d6+10 damage a strike, and rogues can sneak attack for 10d6, use every magic item in the game, and out-skill any other class.

Now...once you factor in a Warlock 9/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock +7 build, with a Greater Chausable of Fell Power...then you're talking about 18d6 a round, and that's just juicy. Smack that on an eldritch glaive and full attack with it, and you're talking major, consistent pwnage.

But it's still nothing compared to some of the optimized arcane caster builds out there. Hell, outside of combat, a non-optimized, vanilla wizard is way better, and arguably could still win in a duel due to greater spell versatility. No matter how you slice it, warlocks are made for endurance casting, not arcane nuclear ordinance.

BTW, I know there's no official PrC for warlock/rogues, but I seem to vaguely recall there being a way to gain some sneak attack damage through a certain spell—making it a possibility for an Eldritch Theurge. Anyone know about this?

[Optimystik]

BTW, I know there's no official PrC for warlock/rogues, but I seem to vaguely recall there being a way to gain some sneak attack damage through a certain spell—making it a possibility for an Eldritch Theurge. Anyone know about this?

Hunter's Eye from PHB2. It's a ranger spell though, so an ET has the same access to it as any other Warlock build - via UMD.

It gives (x/3)d6 sneak attack, where X is your caster level, so just pump that to ungodly levels and out-SA the rogue.

[dextercorvia]

BTW, I know there's no official PrC for warlock/rogues, but I seem to vaguely recall there being a way to gain some sneak attack damage through a certain spell—making it a possibility for an Eldritch Theurge. Anyone know about this?

An Illumian Rogue3/Warlock1 from Halruaa or Nimbral can begin taking Arcane Trickster with his 5th level. It requires one flaw though. If you pick your spells right, you can qualify for Unseen Seer, too.

[Tedesche]

Ah, I think hunter's eye was indeed the one I was thinking of. No easy way of getting it via class combinations that I can come up with either (although I think it should technically be possible). Oh well...a 'lock can dream.

[Draz74]

Well, there's always Archivist/Eldritch Disciple.

[PId6]

Ah, I think hunter's eye was indeed the one I was thinking of. No easy way of getting it via class combinations that I can come up with either (although I think it should technically be possible). Oh well...a 'lock can dream.

Just buy a CL 18 wand of it and UMD away. Expensive, but doable.

[dextercorvia]

Ah, I think hunter's eye was indeed the one I was thinking of. No easy way of getting it via class combinations that I can come up with either (although I think it should technically be possible). Oh well...a 'lock can dream.

Beguiler1/Warlock4/UnseenSeer2/ETX

[sofawall]

fighters are hitting 5 times a round for 2d6+10 damage a strike

wut. Why has their damage not gone up since about level, oh, one?

(18 str+4 orc=22, +6 modifier, 2 hand a greatsword for 2d6+9. A oil of magic weapon or some such thing brings them to 2d6+10, without much op-fu.)

[Hague]

Eh, Warlock/Fighter might be nice. Baleful Utterance works great for disarming foes and you can shatter enemies' armor with it.

Since Invocations are SLAs you can take feats like Quicken SLA. The ability to quicken one or two low-level (I say low-level because that's a requirement, you'd have to be at least level 10 to quicken a 2nd level SLA) and then pick up the slack with fighter feats. For instance, Quickened Baleful Utterance will let you shatter an enemy's weapon before you make a Bull Rush to drag your foe into your waiting allies to deal lots of AoOs. It's a great way to deal with chain-trippers specifically. Quickened Breath of the Night can give you quick concealment to deal with sneak attackers all without sacrificing your attack actions. Then there's always Quickened Walk Unseen, which is an unlimited quickened version of invisibility (self only) at will...

Edit: Hrm... I forgot that Quicken SLA only works 3 times a day... phooey. Seems like Empower SLA Eldritch Blast might be useful, though. The invocations also let you get around being able to select empower only once. You can select it again for each of your shape invocations and essence invocations. Though, ideally, you'd want to get Hellfire Warlock and apply Empower SLA to Hellfire Blast(Sp)

Technically, you can go total nova in one turn by burning Quickened and Empowered Maximized SLA Hellfire Blasts in one turn. Lessee... Yeah, that's a lot of damage. Yikes. You may want to consider this.

[Curmudgeon]

Baleful Utterance works great for disarming foes and you can shatter enemies' armor with it.

Not very likely. It works like Shatter, which is limited to a single solid object. You'd break exactly one ring in a chain mail shirt, though you might have better luck with a breastplate. And of course the big limitation is that it does nothing to any magical objects.

[Hague]

Fair enough, you'd be better off spending the feats on getting maximize, empower, and quicken Spell-like ability for your Eldritch blast (or Hellfire blast) and your favorite blast shape invocation.

Edit: You're being obtuse, Curmudgeon, you and I both know that one object implies the entire suit of armor.