Restricted Wealth by level and Vow of Poverty

[Snake-Aes]

The campaign i'm currently part of is low on the wealth scaling (you're considered at 3/5 of your level for wealth purposes). would that make vow of poverty any good?
There is a second version of it, with lighter restrictions(can't use magic items, can use potions, can use masterwork stuff, can have nonmagical possessions) and whose "breaking" penalty only makes the feat inert for a month. By the end of a 20 levels progression you get a +15 bonus to spread on skills, +5 to ac, +5 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +10 to spread over any of your attributes, and +4 to all saves. All bonuses are luck bonuses.

Is either worth more than the other? At what WBL scale would they really be of any good use? "Emulating a wizard" is not an issue.

[woodenbandman]

All bonuses are luck bonuses.

yes.

Because you can receive spell buffs now, like enhancement bonuses. Nobody else can do that. Be a wizard, bam.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Eh, not really. The luck bonuses are cute, but unless you're a Raptoran or can count on someone to buff you, you won't see much air time. I'd rather go with something that uses said limited wealth to make items for fun and profit.

[Lhurgyof]

Since it's a low-money game, Monk would be a nice option.
I think that vow of poverty could work, the second option being best of course. And when you need a fly, spell on 'ya.

[Snake-Aes]

Eh, not really. The luck bonuses are cute, but unless you're a Raptoran or can count on someone to buff you, you won't see much air time. I'd rather go with something that uses said limited wealth to make items for fun and profit.

As said, emulating a wizard isn't a problem. The party has a wizard and a psion whose abilities overlap a little on the side of combat utility.
The second feat specifically allows one-time consumables, like Qaal tokens and scrolls. (The fluff of the feat is that your lifestyle doesn't promote possessing long-term properties so you hurl yourself face-first on the hands of Fate).
The DM already said that if we pick either, it'll be a free first-level feat, so feat cost isn't a worry either. I'm actually considering it even if just for the fluff, as it fits my character extremely well.

[Eldariel]

If you're a caster, you'll vastly prefer things that increase your caster level, enhance your spells, apply metamagic and so on to statistic buffs; you can raise your numbers however high you want anyways. As such, for a caster, VoP's not worth it. Craft-feats can help mitigate the low WBL.

And you can rip out any source of money like Planar Binding, Wall of Iron, Fabricate or even selling spellcasting services if you happen to be in a dire need. As for non-casters (or Incarnum-users or such), they aren't really worth playing since most of their power comes from their magic items that they no longer get.


VoP Caster can be alright, VoP Non-Caster needs a personal buffing caster to be any good. While the party may have casters, whether they have actions to cast Flys and Hastes and Dimension Doors for you midcombat is another question entirely.

[Snake-Aes]

If you're a caster, you'll vastly prefer things that increase your caster level, enhance your spells, apply metamagic and so on to statistic buffs; you can raise your numbers however high you want anyways. As such, for a caster, VoP's not worth it. Craft-feats can help mitigate the low WBL.

And you can rip out any source of money like Planar Binding, Wall of Iron, Fabricate or even selling spellcasting services if you happen to be in a dire need. As for non-casters (or Incarnum-users or such), they aren't really worth playing since most of their power comes from their magic items that they no longer get.


VoP Caster can be alright, VoP Non-Caster needs a personal buffing caster to be any good. While the party may have casters, whether they have actions to cast Flys and Hastes and Dimension Doors for you midcombat is another question entirely.

No crafting. It's part of the low WBL thing :p Crafting persistent items is not within player reach, and if 1% of the world's casters can craft, it's a lot.

I'm not particularly worried by how crippled I won't be because the standards are more favorable. But my party and I do need to know where we stand if we choose to pick those things, lest the adventures get needlessly complicated.

[Eldariel]

Well, you'll really want access to some magic but I suppose you can do that through Soulmelds or some such; rudimentary magic is very key to deal with some deficiencies normal characters have. But...yeah, it's prolly worth taking the more lenient VoP if you can't guarantee access to static buff items, and especially the key weakness-covering items.

[Snake-Aes]

Yes, I'm considering the second feat(Officially named "In the hands of fate") and supply as much as I can of conveniences in the form of scrolls, potions, alchemical items and the like. This type of character tends to be pretty greedy but distrusting or somehow detached from anything that isn't meant to be acquired and used in the span of a single day.

I'm trying to run hypothetical builds across token levels and comparing with other individuals and then as groups to see if it'll be too harsh, but it doesn't look like it'll be a big deal. Overall the setting has a pleasing feel to it, despite/because of some of these changes.

[Jack_Simth]

The campaign i'm currently part of is low on the wealth scaling (you're considered at 3/5 of your level for wealth purposes). would that make vow of poverty any good?
There is a second version of it, with lighter restrictions(can't use magic items, can use potions, can use masterwork stuff, can have nonmagical possessions) and whose "breaking" penalty only makes the feat inert for a month. By the end of a 20 levels progression you get a +15 bonus to spread on skills, +5 to ac, +5 to attack rolls, +5 to damage, +10 to spread over any of your attributes, and +4 to all saves. All bonuses are luck bonuses.

Is either worth more than the other? At what WBL scale would they really be of any good use? "Emulating a wizard" is not an issue.

Well, the big reasons you need wealth:
Specialty effects (Flight, effective ranged attacks, teleportation, DR penetration, et cetera) and "day after" pills (Stone to Flesh, Restoration, et cetera). The standard boosts (skill bonuses, attribute bonuses, save bonuses, attack bonuses, damage bonuses, AC bonuses, et cetera) can be solved by the DM not requiring them to be as high (lower skill DC's, lower save DC's, lower opponent AC's, lower opponent HP's, lower opponent attack bonuses, et cetera - lower CR challenges, really) - which means a DM can easily adapt (okay, I need to throw monsters 2 CR lower than normal at the party).

If you're a Full caster (Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, whatever), then not having wealth is much less meaningful - as you can get your specialty effects and day-after pills from your own spells (with exceptions...) and you can also get many of the standard boosts from your own spells. The Vow of Poverty (as it exists in the Book of Exalted Deeds) covers attribute bonuses, save bonuses, attack bonuses, damage bonuses, et cetera, plus a handful of specialty effects. So the Vow of Poverty works... for a Full Caster. It doesn't work so hot for a noncaster, as that noncaster doesn't get the important specialty effects.

Now, the Vow of Poverty gives you Standard Boosts that are roughly on par with Wealth By Level in a normal game. So if you've got a low-wealth game, that Vow suddenly becomes much more beneficial - because those extras are above what others will be able to buy.

A Lesser Vow, that lets you get the specialty effects would work out okay... ESPECIALLY if it was highly stackable, like yours appears to be.

[Akal Saris]

I'd go with the "in the hands of fate" feat myself. Metagaming here for a moment, but your DM has told the PCs that the game will be very low on magic items, and that he's willing to give a free bonus feat that will mechanically make up for those lost stats if you want to take it. It sounds to me like an offer you cannot refuse.

Plus, if you end up finding a magic item that's incredibly good, just break your vow and lose the free bonus feat..

Edit: Some cheesy ways to get flight without race/class:
-Angel Wings graft - only 8K or so and give you permanent non-magical flight. Maybe the DM would allow it if part of the backstory
-Animal Devotion, CC - get Air Walk for 1 min/day as a swift action, more with turn attempts.

[Snake-Aes]

I'd go with the "in the hands of fate" feat myself. Metagaming here for a moment, but your DM has told the PCs that the game will be very low on magic items, and that he's willing to give a free bonus feat that will mechanically make up for those lost stats if you want to take it. It sounds to me like an offer you cannot refuse.

Plus, if you end up finding a magic item that's incredibly good, just break your vow and lose the free bonus feat..

I'm half expecting this to be an actual plot twist over the middle levels, actually. I'm talking to my group here and not all of us will be able to take it if we want to remain effective, so it'll probably just be me and one more(out of 4, maybe 5). So far we're liking what we see. The dm won't take it easy on us XD We do have a penchant for solving things with clever ploys.

Graft/Devotion aren't cheesy o.O Do you consider them such? No one has a problem with what we can do unless we're twisting wordings(i'm talking about you, iron heart surge!).