4e Offensive Paladin or Fighter?

[Arillius]

A friend of mine is starting up a 4e campaign soon and invited me to join. This will be my second campaign, my first 4e.

I was thinking an offensive paladin or a fighter. Now I have played fighters before in a few of those one shot games, 3.5 or pathfinder, so I was hoping to try something different. I here paladins can make great offensive, but one or two of my friends say just to stick with fighter. Anyone play far enough or have enough experience with either or both classes in 4e who can tell me what they think?

[subject42]

A friend of mine and I played a Paladin and Devout Fighter of Kord who both cursed a lot.

Some villagers thought it was pretty offensive.

[AlterForm]

As you probably know, Paladin and Fighter are Defenders, and as such, are geared primarily towards defense. They can be specced for offense, but you'll get more efficient results from a Striker class. I suggest backing up for a moment and considering what you want your character theme to be.

Do you want an up-close-and-personal divine punisher who smites his foes with a weapon? Avenger (PHB2) will do well here.

Or a divine laser beast, firing his god's wrath left and right? Invoker (PHB2) imposes moderate damage combined with status effects from afar.

Ranger can fill in the Martial role of weapon-wielding arse-kicker, but a Tempest Fighter (Martial Power) can do the same to a certain extent.

If you're absolutely set on Paladin as a class, look in Divine Power. There's a feat that lets you add you STR bonus to Divine Challenge damage, and several nice STR-based powers. There are also STR powers in the PHB1; look for things with large #[W] counts, like Martyr's Retribution (I think that's it; spend a HS, deal 4[W])

Tempest Fighter, which I mentioned earlier, can also put out damage by stacking damage modifiers via multiple attacks. Great Weapon (aka 2 hand weapon) Fighter has large [W] dice. Fighters in general also have what is generally considered the most punishing mark-retribution mechanic of all defenders, gaining a free attack with a bonus to the attack roll when an enemy violates their mark in a specific way.

[Arillius]

Class wise the campaign is limited to the first players handbook, hes making a sci-fi game and while he's not changing anything but names and reasons for being there it will be easier for him if there's only so many classes he has to work over to fit into the genre so I didn't want to argue.

I had thought that the defenders and strikers and whatnot were more suggestions, as in both PHB1 and the Divine there's options for offensive builds. Most of my experience with 4e comes from the Penny Arcade/pvp/will wheaten pod casts and the recent purchase of several books.

[AlterForm]

Class wise the campaign is limited to the first players handbook, hes making a sci-fi game and while hes not changing the mechanics of the classes he still has to change some of it.

I had thought that the defenders and strikers and whatnot were more suggestions, as in both PHB1 and the Divine there's options for offensive builds. Most of my experience with 4e comes from the Penny Arcade/pvp/will wheaten pod casts and the recent purchase of several books.

Indeed, you can go "off-role" to a certain extent, more easily with some classes than others.

If you're limited to PHB1, ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it'll be awkward with either class. I suspect the difference will be in whether you want to offensive by leading the team (STR/WIS Paladin) or by buffing yourself (Great Weapon Fighter).

Do you have any idea how high of level the campaign will reach?

[Dogmantra]

While defenders can do damage, it's a lot easier to make a striker do a lot of damage because that's their thing. However, I'm in a 4e game at the moment, playing a fighter. Even taking the lowest damaging powers, I still have an okay damage output.

[Thajocoth]

Paladins are very defensive. Fighters are better at defending their allies than a Paladin, while a Paladin has higher defenses (and is therefore harder to hit) and can heal themselves or others a few times per day. Fighters are almost as good at dealing damage as the classes that are meant to deal damage.

Paladins & Fighters are both Defenders primarily. This means that their main job is to make the enemies attack them instead of their allies.

If you want a really offensive Defender, I recommend a Fighter with the Tempest Technique class feature. Str/Dex build. Oddly enough, a pair of Short Swords are a great choice. Since they're offhand weapons, you'll get extra bonuses from your class feature. Wear Hide Armor instead of Scale, since you'll have the Dex for it, and that gives you more bonuses from your class feature. All together, this is a +1 shield bonus to AC & Reflex, +1 to hit, +2 to damage from your class feature. Then take lots of powers that require you to be wielding a weapon in each hand. I can recommend a lot of feats and stuff for this build.

If you can choose the magic you get on your weapons, Hestavar and Rhythm Blade are good choices. The Hestavar will give you a bonus to your Opportunity & Combat Challenge attacks while the Rhythm Blade will increase your defenses.

EDIT: Are you limitted to the PHB1 just for classes? Or for feats and features and everything else too? It seems really weird to restrict anything to me...

[Yakk]

Offensive Paladins really took off in Divine Power -- basically it completes the Str-only build (as well as shoring up the Cha-only build).

Fighters are interesting in that most of their offence also boosts their defencel especially in PHB1 land. The only real choice is a two-handed weapon or a one handed weapon (1 damage per [W] vs 2 AC from the shield). The lack of superior two-handed weapons in PHB1 then leads to issues... (as the bastard sword is a match for any PHB1 two-handed weapon).

[Arillius]

I was thinking proactive, with a smite first ask questions later. I have a cleric who fights a lot in the other campaign and I've learned that being able to heal oneself is quite a useful thing, so the lay on hands only makes me think about tit more. The high defense is also what gets me, a paladin be able to take the hits and then deal them back.

Admittedly I had first thought of Paladin because I was hoping for some kinda tech summoned mount, but I've learned better about the 4e ones after some reading.

I actually already have builds written up with ideas for progression depending on what we face, I was just curious as to any actual experience.

[Kylarra]

In PHB1 land you'll definitely want to go with the fighter as your offensive defender.

[Tengu_temp]

If you have access to Divine Power, a paladin will deal more damage, at the cost of hurting himself in the process. Just take the alternate class feature from DP, invest in strength first and wisdom second, and use a strong two-handed weapon or a bastard sword. If you don't have access to Divine Power, a fighter will be better.

[Arillius]

I'm not sure about others. He said he'll be making home brewed races, though the idea of a minotaur with a laser cannon intrigued him. That suggests he might be open to feats and such from other books as well.

[Vitruviansquid]

While it's true that you shouldn't expect a fighter to do as much damage as an actual striker...

Let me just say that either landing or whiffing a Brute Strike (ask if your GM will you let upgrade to Lasting Threat from Martial Power) is very satisfying.

[Kurald Galain]

While it's true that you shouldn't expect a fighter to do as much damage as an actual striker...

Ah, but they come very close.

Paladin has as its secondary ability healing people. Fighter has as its secondary ability smacking down enemies pretty hard. Plus they have the cool ability that if you opportunity attack anything, it must stop moving.

Incidentally, Paladin is generally considered underwhelming unless the Divine Power sourcebook is allowed.

[Arillius]

Alright, so he is allowing most of the Divine Power things. I realize I won't be doing striker damage, but then again I'll be able to take mores hits and ultimately Ill end up ont he front lines with either build.

So the campaign is a 3rd level one, with the +1, 0, and -1 magic item rule for the characters wealth. I'm not really sure I understand this. Does that mean I can only get a lvl 4 rated item, a level 3, and a level 2?

[NecroRebel]

So the campaign is a 3rd level one, with the +1, 0, and -1 magic item rule for the characters wealth. I'm not really sure I understand this. Does that mean I can only get a lvl 4 rated item, a level 3, and a level 2?

Technically, the level 3 starting wealth is 1 level 4 or less item, 1 level 3 or less item, 1 level 2 or less item, enough gold to buy a level 2 item, and all the nonmagical items you might desire.

I'd recommend you spend your magic items on 1 magic weapon, a suit of magic armor, and a magic neck slot item. Then, since they're free at this point, take a mundane shield if you expect to use one, a mundane ranged weapon like a longbow or crossbow (always nice to have some option to attack at range, as even if you suck at it, a 5% chance of dealing piddly damage is better than nothing), and standard adventuring gear like ropes, pitons, rations, and an Everburning Torch (they're technically mundane adventurer's gear, even if they're supposedly magical). Your gold should probably go for another minor magic item, though since you can cover the major parts (attack, AC, and NADs) with your "required" items it's sometimes difficult to find anything useful at such low levels. Go for Magic Chalk or somesuch if nothing else; you'll never know when such a thing might be useful.

[Arillius]

Ahh, thank you very much. And thank you all for your help as well.

[Arillius]

Oh, I've found mention of Ancestral Weapons that level with a character. Is that something that cann be found in a 4e book?

[erikun]

Actually, I believe there was a 4e Fighter build which out-damaged any other striker builds when the new edition first came out. It was one of the main reasons for removing the Oversized ability from all PC races.

Still, it could work for you. Focusing on STR/CON, using a two-handed Maul and the Hammer Rythym feat, you'll be doing quite a bit of damage on a hit or a miss. Unusually handy with those Reliable powers, in case you miss. If you have access to Primal Power, I believe there is a feat that allows primal classes - including multiclassed ones - to add CON to your AC instead of DEX. If not, Scale Mail works just as well, and you have access to it from first level. A Barbarian would probably be more practical, though.

I believe Tempest Fighter (Martial Power 1?) is a nice option for wielding two weapons. I seem to recall the Daggermaster (Rogue) paragon path to be a very nice option for crit focusing, although I don't recall if Tempest requires one-handed weapons or will allow still grant bonuses to daggers.

Paladin is more defensively minded, so I'm not sure how damage-focused you can make it. They do have a lot of marking abilities, especially in Divine Power, and a CHA-Paladin could multiclass well with Warlock for a couple of invisibility powers. However, Paladins are mostly known for marking several targets and tossing healing around as secondary effects of their attacks. You're welcome to give the damage-adin a try, as the worst that can happen is that you'll be retraining after a few levels. Heck, I made an INT/CHA socialite/re-roller Paladin, so can attest that the class is rather versatile.

I believe Rangers can ride their animal companions, although I think you need Martial Power for the rules on that.

Oh, I've found mention of Ancestral Weapons that level with a character. Is that something that cann be found in a 4e book?

I haven't heard about that one, but there is a Transfer Enchantment ritual which will take the enchantment off a weapon you find (destroying it) and put it on any other weapon you have available. You can easily keep your "ancestral" weapons and armor while still getting new enchantments this way.

[Excession]

If you have access to Primal Power, I believe there is a feat that allows primal classes - including multiclassed ones - to add CON to your AC instead of DEX.

Hide Armor Expertise was deservedly nerfed in an update, it's now: "While wearing hide armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC instead of using your Dex or Int modifier." Pre-req is 15 Con and a primal class. Now it just lets Barbs dump Dex without making them extra squishy or forcing them into chain.

I seem to recall the Daggermaster (Rogue) paragon path to be a very nice option for crit focusing, although I don't recall if Tempest requires one-handed weapons or will allow still grant bonuses to daggers.

Daggermaster was also nerfed to only work on Rogue powers. It's useless for other classes now. There was much complaining.

Paladin is more defensively minded, so I'm not sure how damage-focused you can make it. They do have a lot of marking abilities, especially in Divine Power, and a CHA-Paladin could multiclass well with Warlock for a couple of invisibility powers. However, Paladins are mostly known for marking several targets and tossing healing around as secondary effects of their attacks. You're welcome to give the damage-adin a try, as the worst that can happen is that you'll be retraining after a few levels. Heck, I made an INT/CHA socialite/re-roller Paladin, so can attest that the class is rather versatile.

With Divine Power, Str/Wis can be effective damage dealing defenders, especially if you swap Lay on Hands for Ardent Vow. They have a 3[W] encounter and 4[W] daily at level 1, though they both have a nasty backlash.

I believe Rangers can ride their animal companions, although I think you need Martial Power for the rules on that.

Rangers only get a companion using the build option in Martial Power. I've heard it's a bit weak, though I haven't seen it play. The same round of updates changed mounts so that small characters can now ride medium mounts, rather than requiring large. That would, it seems, let a halfling ranger ride their companion. I'm not sure how the mount and companion rules would interact when it comes to combat, might be a DM call.

[Arillius]

Yeah, and the Dm is going to allow a few things with the Divine power like that.

[ShaggyMarco]

Str/Cha build Paladin with Mighty Challenge and a polearm can turn your paladin into something of a striker, using your divine challenge as your striker "damage add" rather than as a real defender mark.

Basically, challenge an enemy and then be where the marked enemy can't get to you, but you can keep knocking them around. They'll be forced to attack other party members and thus, take lots of extra damage.

I'm currently playing a hybrid Barbarian/Paladin that combines barbarian mobility with just this Paladin tactic. I can step up and be the defender if I need to, but frequently I just play hard to get while smacking from a distance.

Incidentally, my party also has a Strikery Fighter. He wields an Executioner's Axe and takes as many high-dice powers as he can. He deals crazy damage.

[Meta]

Actually, I believe there was a 4e Fighter build which out-damaged any other striker builds when the new edition first came out. It was one of the main reasons for removing the Oversized ability from all PC races.

Still, it could work for you. Focusing on STR/CON, using a two-handed Maul and the Hammer Rythym feat, you'll be doing quite a bit of damage on a hit or a miss. Unusually handy with those Reliable powers, in case you miss. If you have access to Primal Power, I believe there is a feat that allows primal classes - including multiclassed ones - to add CON to your AC instead of DEX. If not, Scale Mail works just as well, and you have access to it from first level. A Barbarian would probably be more practical, though.

I believe Tempest Fighter (Martial Power 1?) is a nice option for wielding two weapons. I seem to recall the Daggermaster (Rogue) paragon path to be a very nice option for crit focusing, although I don't recall if Tempest requires one-handed weapons or will allow still grant bonuses to daggers.

Paladin is more defensively minded, so I'm not sure how damage-focused you can make it. They do have a lot of marking abilities, especially in Divine Power, and a CHA-Paladin could multiclass well with Warlock for a couple of invisibility powers. However, Paladins are mostly known for marking several targets and tossing healing around as secondary effects of their attacks. You're welcome to give the damage-adin a try, as the worst that can happen is that you'll be retraining after a few levels. Heck, I made an INT/CHA socialite/re-roller Paladin, so can attest that the class is rather versatile.

I believe Rangers can ride their animal companions, although I think you need Martial Power for the rules on that.


I haven't heard about that one, but there is a Transfer Enchantment ritual which will take the enchantment off a weapon you find (destroying it) and put it on any other weapon you have available. You can easily keep your "ancestral" weapons and armor while still getting new enchantments this way.

Sorta right on the fighter out damaging all comment. Fighters had one of the best damage paragon paths called Pit Fighter and Rangers would multiclass into fighter for it. although their equivalent, the stormwarden was no slouch in the powerhouse PHB1 pps

edited for spelling

[Arillius]

I was thinking of doing that second thing, using things like ardent vow and a +1 Inescable Maul.

So they just got rid of a paragon path?

Also, there's this feat that lets you choose what ability score you can hit melee with, is there any such thing for ranged?

[erikun]

That feat (Melee Training) only applies to basic melee attacks. A fighter with Melee Training will still need STR to hit with his fighter powers.

Heavy Thrown weapons use STR to hit, Light Thrown and other ranged weapons use DEX. I don't think there is a "Ranged Training" feat, although it should be easy for the DM to make one (or allow Melee Training to apply to basic ranged attacks as well).

[Arillius]

if its that much trouble I won't bother, I got some feats for melee attacks to get first anyway.

Anyone know what the carrying capacity is in 4e?

[Meta]

if its that much trouble I won't bother, I got some feats for melee attacks to get first anyway.

Anyone know what the carrying capacity is in 4e?

10X str is light load, 20X is heavy load and 50X is how much you can drag i believe

[Excession]

As a Fighter or high-Str Paladin a javelin is likely to be your best choice for ranged attacks, but how often you need it depends on the encounters that your DM throws at you. You might encounter flying enemies, or ranged enemies that you can't get to easily. You might have a large enough starting distance that you can't get to the enemies in a move+charge, or you want to draw them back to your choice of combat area.

A plain +1 Javelin may be a useful magic item to get, because all magic items in 4e have the returning property. Later on there are other useful enchantments for ranged weapons, like Skyrender if your DM turns out to like flyers.

[Arillius]

I actually completely missed javelins, lol I feel silly.

What is the returning property? Is it as simple as it sounds?

[Mando Knight]

Yes, it's as simple as it sounds. Any magic throwing weapon will automatically return to the user's hand after the attack, and can be used even for multiple-attack ranged powers without using extra ammunition.

Here's how the thrown weapons break down:
Heavy Thrown:
Javelin: Simple, fairly long range (for heavy thrown, anyway), spear.
Handaxe: Military, short range, off-hand, axe.
Throwing Hammer: Handaxe, but hammer.
Trident: Military, very short range, spear, more damage, versatile. AV1.
Tratnyr (aka Wingspear): Superior, Javelin range, spear, more damage, versatile. AV1.
Drow Long Knife: Superior, Hand Axe range, heavy blade, +3 proficiency, off-hand. Eberron Player's Guide.

Light Thrown:
Dagger: Simple, hand axe range, low damage, +3 proficiency, light blade, off-hand. +1 to-hit if Rogue.
Shuriken: Superior, thrown only, slightly longer range than handaxe, low damage unless Rogue, +3 proficiency, light blade.
Talenta Boomerang: Superior, thrown only, javelin range, low damage, light blade. Auto-return even if nonmagical. Eberron Player's Guide.
Xen'drik Boomerang: Superior, thrown only, Shuriken range, light blade. Auto-return even if nonmagical. Eberron Player's Guide.