Instead of X, Play Y [PF/3.5]

[subject42]

Hello All,
It's always nice to branch out a bit, and I thought that it would be nice to get a good suggestion list for non-core base classes that people could try if they felt like trying something new.

I have a quick list below. Does anyone have any ideas that I missed?

Barbarian: Warlock, Wilder, Crusader, Duskblade, Alchemist, Warblade

Bard: White Raven Crusader, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, Witch

Cleric: Spirit Shaman, Binder, Favored Soul, Shugenja, Ardent, Mystic, Archivist, Oracle, Healer

Druid: Spirit Shaman, Totemist, Shugenja, Summoner

Fighter: Warblade, Duskblade, Hexblade, Knight, Swashbuckler, Cavalier

Monk: Unarmed Swordsage, Psychic Warrior

Paladin: Incarnate, Crusader, Knight, Duskblade, Hexblade, Cavalier

Ranger: Swordsage, Duskblade, Hexblade, Scout, Warlock, Inquisitor

Rogue: Factotum, Beguiler, Scout, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, Lurk

Sorcerer: Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Binder, Psion, Dragonfire Adept, Wilder

Wizard: Wu Jen, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Artificer, Psion, Dragonfire Adept, Erudite, Archivist, Factotum

[Curmudgeon]

Add Knight for both Fighter and Paladin.

[Jorda75]

A character who likes to play Barbarians may find some fun in a surprising place, the Warlock. While they appear fundamentally different a Warlock is a great way to introduce a martial player into the arcane classes. Warlock powers are often very straight forward, he doesn't need to pick from a large list and most of the time the warlock is standing back, firing away. If even this is a bit much with a simple feat you can change the character around make them a melee warlock, charging in and bashing heads with magical punches.

[Keld Denar]

Add in Dragonfire Adept for wizard or sorcerer. They fill the same role (AoE damage and control).

Duskblade and PsyWar for fighter. Heck. Duskblade and PsyWar would probably work for Ranger and Paladin as well.

Totemist for Ranger.

[shadow_archmagi]

sorcerer-psion

[The-Mage-King]

Wizard: Magic Swordsage.

[Optimystik]

Since I see you doubling some of the choices, Shugenja subs well for Druid as well as Cleric. Archivist can also sub for both.

- Swashbuckler and Duskblade can sub for Fighter
- Duskblade and Hexblade for Paladin
- Psion and Erudite sub well for Wizard, and Wilder for Sorcerer
- Wilder can also sub for Barbarian if you go with a gish build (in terms of filling the "get mad and break things" niche.)
- Ardent and Society Mind sub for Cleric.
- Scout, Warlock and Marksman can sub for Ranger.
- Spellthief, Psychic Rogue and Lurk can sub for Rogue.

[subject42]

Wizard: Magic Swordsage.

I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

[The-Mage-King]

I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

I'm going to see if there's a Dm crazy enough to allow me to try it.

I imagine that it'd work about as well as a Warlock... Just more blasty.

[mabriss lethe]

Put Factotum on the list for both Bard and Rogue....and anywhere else it seems appropriate

[DragoonWraith]

I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

Tried what? There's isn't an actual class by that name in the book - just a vague suggestion for a homebrewed adaptation you might make if you were interested in that feel. It's quite clearly not playable based solely on what's in the book; you'd have to write up a spell list, for one thing.

[subject42]

It's quite clearly not playable based solely on what's in the book; you'd have to write up a spell list, for one thing.

That's why I'm asking. I would want to know what the pitfalls were in previous attempts before I went and allowed/brewed it.

[Keld Denar]

I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

Saph played one in a high op RHoD game. Constant Blur and attacks with Belkar Claws was pretty slick. Too bad the game died.

[Il_Vec]

Rogue: Factotum, Beguiler, Swordsage.

[Zovc]

Barbarian: ???

Barbarian is fine, it just isn't an optimal class to take for 20 levels straight.

Bard: White Raven Crusader, Martial, Dragon Shaman

Bard is also fine. Bard just isn't a very strong class on its own, either. Bard does, incidentally, have a lot of great prestige class options.

Cleric: Spirit Shaman, Binder, Favored Soul, Shugenja

Cleric is an excellent class, and it's hard to find a more powerful replacement.

If you want to give a cleric a different playstyle, make them a Spontaneous, Cliostered Cleric. (This will be almost strictly better than a Favored Soul, and will play much more nicely with prestige classes.)

Druid: Spirit Shaman, Binder

There are a lot of interesting druid variants, poke around the SRD. There's also the Wildshape Ranger.

Fighter: Warblade, ???

Yes, the Warblade is an excellent replacement for the Fighter.

Monk: Unarmed Swordsage, Psychic Warrior

You're on the right track here.

Paladin: Incarnate, Crusader, Knight

You're mean enough to encourage someone to play an Incarnate?

Ranger: Swordsage, ???

Unfortunately, ToB didn't do much for ranged characters. I believe the Wildshape Ranger is the most popular ranger replacement.

Rogue: Factotum, Beguiler (?)

You're on the right track here.

Sorcerer: Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Binder

The Generic Spellcaster is almost a sorcerer in terms of casting power early on, but it does also get bonus feats. (...and you choose your casting stat, and you have A LOT more spells to pick from.) The Binder is not a good replacement for a Sorcerer, and the Warmage is often considered a very weak class. The Psion is also a good replacement for a Sorcerer.

Wizard: Wu Jen, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Artificer

I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a class that does casting better than a Wizard.

[Il_Vec]

Zovc, I do not think the point is to find the Optimal choices at all, only similar, non-core ones...But I do agree that Warmage doesn't sub for Wizard in most cases.

[Zovc]

Zovc, I do not think the point is to find the Optimal choices at all, only similar, non-core ones...But I do agree that Warmage doesn't sub for Wizard in most cases.

So what if I was trying to think of similar, better stuff? :P

[Il_Vec]

Nothing wrong at all, but since you didn't say that you were ignoring the original premisse of simply variety and tackling it from an optimization angle, it appeared you were trying to correct the OP.

[molten_dragon]

Barbarian: Warlock, Wilder

These both seem like VERY odd suggestions for a barbarian. I would be more inclined to suggest things like the Warblade, Crusader, Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, and other 'fighter type' classes as an alternative.

[Critical]

Warblade for a Barbarian, also, Shifter race if the player's into some kind of "Berzerker's mode" condition for his character.

[Optimator]

I would recommend Duskblade for a Barbarian substitute. Duskblades are arcane Barbarians.

[Douglas]

That's why I'm asking. I would want to know what the pitfalls were in previous attempts before I went and allowed/brewed it.

See this post for my suggestion of how to handle arcane swordsage, though I haven't actually tried using it in game.

[Il_Vec]

I would recommend Duskblade for a Barbarian substitute. Duskblades are arcane Barbarians.

I agree with this. Even if they are smart and don't rage.

[CubeB]

These are Pathfinder Only, and they're still being playtested, but here.

The Oracle: A Spontaneous Divine Caster. Unlike the Favored Soul, an Oracle is more like a soothsayer. They get bonus class features based on their Mystery (which is similar to a domain), and their Curse (a disability, such as blindness or deafness, which can only be cured by a deity.) They're less durable than a cleric, however. If you like Sorcerers or Cleric, then you might want to look into the Oracle.

The Summoner: A spontaneous arcane caster who specializes in calling forth creatures from the various planes. The summoner's main class feature is the Eidolon, an unlimited duration customizable creature that acts as the Summoner's companion. They also (naturally) are adept at using Summon Monster to call for aid. You won't be as powerful as an Animal Companion Wizard, but the Flavor of being able to have a completely customizable creature as your bodyguard appeals to quite a few individuals. It's an alternative to Companion Oriented Druids and Rangers, or Summon Happy Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics. The choice here is mostly for flavor though.

The Witch: The Witch is an interesting class. They're learned spell casters, like a Wizard, who rely on a Familiar to gain their spells. However, they also have spontaneous abilities called "Hexes" that function like Warlock Invocations. Their spell selection isn't very big on offense, but they make fairly good support casters. At least on paper. I'd recommend them as a Bard Alternative, personally.

The Cavalier: This is the obligatory Melee Class. They're an interesting alternative for Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians, but the ToB Classes are a better choice. Still, if you like the flavor, it's worth looking into.

The Inquisitor: NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! This class is kind of like a blend between the Paladin and the Ranger, with an expanded spell list. (They go up to Caster Level 9, as opposed to the lower caster levels of the Pali and Ranger). They gain domains like a cleric, they have a special judgement ability that grants them additional powers, and they can imbue their weapons with the bane property. If you like the idea of hunting down the enemies of your church, but don't want to be a Paladin or Ranger, this class is worth a look.

The Alchemist: The Alchemist is kind of a Dr. Jekyll class. They specialize in mixing volatile chemicals to make spell effects, but they can't normally apply those spell effects to other people without an optional class feature. I haven't had a chance to see this in action, but I would guess that the average Alchemist would be sort of a Mr. Hyde type, buffing himself with his extracts and mutagens into a brute type, and relying on bombs when he's squishy.
As a result, I'd compare him to the barbarian.

But then again, I haven't tested these. What do you all think?

[Math_Mage]

I remember hearing somewhere that Crusaders are at least as much like Barbarians as like Paladins. Just a thought.

[term1nally s1ck]

Archivist in for Cleric, Bard, Wizard.

[balistafreak]

I believe the OA Shaman has Improved Unarmed Strike and (spontaneous?) spellcasting in the same class, along with some other random bonuses. Might be a good base class for a player who wants to be that mystical Eastern "monk" without... failing... a lot. Personally, I'd rather go Tashalatora/Monastic Training/Ardent or Psychic Warrior, but for the aesthetically inclined (in terms of character construction) it's one complete base class. That, and it uses Vancian casting, which while not really an advantage, might be comfortable for more people than Psionics.

I don't agree, but then again I haven't actually played the OA Shaman, so I can't say. Someone try it out and send me the news about it, eh?

[Optimystik]

The Mystic from Dragonlance Campaign Setting can also sub for Clerics.

[Draz74]

Many wizard-types in fantasy literature don't really cast too many spells per day, and more often are adept at finding clever nonmagical solutions to various problems. In that light, Factotum actually can make an excellent Wizard substitute (assuming at least a Level 3 game).

Also, I'm particularly fond of Psions substituting into the Cleric role.

[Optimystik]

Many wizard-types in fantasy literature don't really cast too many spells per day, and more often are adept at finding clever nonmagical solutions to various problems. In that light, Factotum actually can make an excellent Wizard substitute (assuming at least a Level 3 game).

While that is true, the ones that don't push themselves to their limits on a regular basis also tend not to be adventurers.