Pun-pun vs. The Wish and The Word

[Jallorn]

Who wins in this epic battle of overpowering cheese?

Pun-pun

The Wish and The Word

My money is on Pun-pun, but that would still be a fun battle.

[oxybe]

pun pun by default.

the only way to beat pun pun is to preemptively destroy him pre-ascension.

post ascension, he can emulate the wish, word, hulking hurler, the entire pantheon & every other borked thing in D&D via his ability gain. simultaneously.

[Draz74]

the only way to beat pun pun is to preemptively destroy him pre-ascension.

Wait, come to think of it, can't he give himself time travel abilities and prevent your preemptive strike?

[oxybe]

Wait, come to think of it, can't he give himself time travel abilities and prevent your preemptive strike?

yes, but the only way a D&D world can properly exist, if we assume pun-pun to be a possible outcome, is one of 4 things:

A) pun pun just doesn't care about the world enough to be a jerk about his deus ex machina powers so no one ever tries to stop him from his evil and terrifying master plan of "i'm simply going to watch the world and it's people because they're funny".

B) diverging timelines keep the world from imploding. when someone goes to kill pun-pun it splits the timeline in 2: one where PP is alive and well as his assassin is destroyed and one where PP has never existed in the first place.

C) pun pun is bored of existance and lets himself gets killed. teh endz.

D) the future is not set in stone. if you can predict X from happening, you can probably stop it. just because punpun is ready to ascend doesn't mean he will in the future.

[Ravens_cry]

Wait, come to think of it, can't he give himself time travel abilities and prevent your preemptive strike?

Only if he actually ascends "first". If he never ascends he can never go back in time to stop you from stopping him from ascending. You only get once chance, you must do it right the original time or he can just stop you, no matter what.
Language doesn't do well with things like this.

[jokey665]

Only if he actually ascends "first". If he never ascends he can never go back in time to stop you from stopping him from ascending. You only get once chance, you must do it right the original time or he can just stop you, no matter what.
Language doesn't do well with things like this.

I literally just finished watching Deja Vu (the 2006 one), and I'm going to totally and utterly disagree with you. But then again, nobody really knows what can happen if time travel exists; too many possibilities.

[Jallorn]

I literally just finished watching Deja Vu (the 2006 one), and I'm going to totally and utterly disagree with you. But then again, nobody really knows what can happen if time travel exists; too many possibilities.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the future doesn't exist yet, and that if you travel to the past you create an offshoot reality that is now different from yours.

[Myth]

Yes Pun-Pun does win. And stopping him can happen only via Divine intervention:

1: Any Gods that sense his ascension due to Portfolio Sense proceed to smash him. Life and Death SDA will mean no mortal can ever ressurrect him.

2: Post-ascension only lord Ao or the Lady of Pain can beat him as they have no stats and are above deities, therefore they exist outsude the DnD rules. The DM can simply say "Lord Ao erases Pun-Pun from existence for disbalancing the equilibruim of divine power in the multiverse." and no ammount of infinite DEX and spells will help him.

The Lady of Pain is assumed to be an Overdeity similar to Ao but with a more narrow focus on her existence, but If she can smoke a God she probably is above DR20.

[Sindri]

Even if Pun-pun was bored, and just let them do whatever they wanted to him for a few rounds, as a diety he is beyond the Wish spell, and having literally infinite HD Blasphemy has no effect.

Then he uses his infinite actions per round and infinite spells to systematically go through everything they have ever thought to guard against, and then kills them each with a single unarmed strike. At any distance. On any plane. And then declares that nothing can ever restore them, in any way, ever. Except for him.

[2xMachina]

Pun Pun has NI Diving Ranks!

[Myth]

Pun Pun has NI Diving Ranks!

Yes but this mechanic exploit grants him only the RAW bonuses of + divine ranks. So more of the same: Saving Throws, DR, BAB, SDAs... It does not put him at Overdeity level and thus exempt from the rules. Unless you want to interpret the rules where if a deity gains Divine rank above 20 he becomes an Overdeity. However that would mean you read RAI and thus the proxy trick will not work as it was never the intention of WOTC to have an infinite loop that allows infinite Divine Ranks.

Not to mention that Ice Assassin uses the wording "creature" and Deities are beyond mortals and such. It is obvious that if one uses RAI Ice Assassin could never copy a Deity's stats or SDAs.

Plus, good luck with obtaining a pice of hair or nail or whatever from a Deity to cast Ice Assassin in the first place.

[rakkoon]

These characters are fabulous..Pun pun I knew, these two new guys are a fabulous example of how to screw up a system.

[The Glyphstone]

Pun Pun has NI Diving Ranks!

Especially since he doesn't have to breathe or worry about water pressure. He can probably get some really neat photos of the critters that live on the ocean floor.

[hamishspence]

Plus, good luck with obtaining a pice of hair or nail or whatever from a Deity to cast Ice Assassin in the first place.

Spell-like ability (or Eshew Materials) gets around that, RAW.

In practice I think some material components should always be required, even with an SLA or that feat.

But the rules don't say that.

[Douglas]

Yes but this mechanic exploit grants him only the RAW bonuses of + divine ranks. So more of the same: Saving Throws, DR, BAB, SDAs... It does not put him at Overdeity level and thus exempt from the rules. Unless you want to interpret the rules where if a deity gains Divine rank above 20 he becomes an Overdeity. However that would mean you read RAI and thus the proxy trick will not work as it was never the intention of WOTC to have an infinite loop that allows infinite Divine Ranks.

Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

That seems pretty blatant RAW to me.

Not to mention that Ice Assassin uses the wording "creature" and Deities are beyond mortals and such. It is obvious that if one uses RAI Ice Assassin could never copy a Deity's stats or SDAs.

Deities are very powerful creatures, but they are still creatures. I will be very surprised if you can show me any rule that states that only mortal or non-deific beings count as "creatures".

Plus, good luck with obtaining a pice of hair or nail or whatever from a Deity to cast Ice Assassin in the first place.

You are referring to the material component of the spell. Which is a component. Which spell-like abilities do not require.

Also, it has no listed price, so:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Yes, this is obviously not RAI, but since when has RAI ever been relevant to a RAW thought exercise like Pun-pun?

[Closak]

Immortals handbook.

Oopsies


...Or we could just send "The Avatar Of All Evil" after him.
That be fun to watch...then again, maybe not, collateral damage and all.
I'm gonna go hide now! *Runs*

[Myth]

Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

That seems pretty blatant RAW to me.

Yes. But since you do not have a means of tracking your progression, which is obtained by an infinite loop exploit, you simply stack DR levels to get the actual stat bonuses. Rank 21+ obtained via this infinite loop makes pun-pun a deity with infinite Divine Rank gotten by copying the DR off of deities who DO require worship. He is not a being that simply is above Divine Rank, he actually can measure his divine rank. Ao is above such things. So if Pun-Pun is infinite DR he is still below Ao who is simly excluded from the system. The sheer fact that Pun-Pun has a "starting point" before he ascends makes him inferior.

Deities are very powerful creatures, but they are still creatures. I will be very surprised if you can show me any rule that states that only mortal or non-deific beings count as "creatures".

Aye they are 20HD outsiders + vanilla class levels. However the assumption that a mere 9th level spell can copy the effects of Salient Divine abilites which are fueled by the worship of thousands of people is absurd and you are arguing sematnics. The RAW text of this spell is so poorly written you might as well summon an Ice Assassin of Ao and just re-create the universe.

You are referring to the material component of the spell. Which is a component. Which spell-like abilities do not require.

Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp. XP Cost: 5,000.

The text specifically describes what is needed. It's obviously not simple fluff text like the pinch of powdered iron needed for Enlarge Person (the use of which is left to the player's imagination). Obviously if the spell costs 20,000 gp and 5000 XP the third component is intended to be equally taxing, albeint in a different way (needs the player's time and effort to be obtained, which could be the least or most expensive comodity). Sure by RAW if you can get Ice Assassin as a SLA you'd be able to skip this i guess. It's really up to the DM at this stage, as any normal means of getting it (SLA High Arcana for example) will have the cost upped. 50K Xp per casting anyone?

Also, it has no listed price, so:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch. Yes, this is obviously not RAI, but since when has RAI ever been relevant to a RAW thought exercise like Pun-pun.

Dude seriously this RAW vs RAI has it's limits. Assume you have a piece of a random Deitiy in your spell component pouch? Pun-Pun is a mental excersise for sure but many players argue that he is actually legal per 3.5, whcih i am hoping to disprove.

[Tinydwarfman]

Yes. But since you do not have a means of tracking your progression, which is obtained by an infinite loop exploit, you simply stack DR levels to get the actual stat bonuses. Rank 21+ obtained via this infinite loop makes pun-pun a deity with infinite Divine Rank gotten by copying the DR off of deities who DO require worship. He is not a being that simply is above Divine Rank, he actually can measure his divine rank. Ao is above such things. So if Pun-Pun is infinite DR he is still below Ao who is simly excluded from the system. The sheer fact that Pun-Pun has a "starting point" before he ascends makes him inferior.

Um, what? No, you are completely just making this up, making distinctions that you may feel should exist, but are not there in the rules.

Aye they are 20HD outsiders + vanilla class levels. However the assumption that a mere 9th level spell can copy the effects of Salient Divine abilites which are fueled by the worship of thousands of people is absurd and you are arguing sematnics. The RAW text of this spell is so poorly written you might as well summon an Ice Assassin of Ao and just re-create the universe.

Again, you are saying "well that is the way it works, but that's just stupid!"
Yeah, it may be stupid, but that is the way it works. Your houserules are not RAW.

The text specifically describes what is needed. It's obviously not simple fluff text like the pinch of powdered iron needed for Enlarge Person (the use of which is left to the player's imagination). Obviously if the spell costs 20,000 gp and 5000 XP the third component is intended to be equally taxing, albeint in a different way (needs the player's time and effort to be obtained, which could be the least or most expensive comodity). Sure by RAW if you can get Ice Assassin as a SLA you'd be able to skip this i guess. It's really up to the DM at this stage, as any normal means of getting it (SLA High Arcana for example) will have the cost upped. 50K Xp per casting anyone?

You might want to look at exactly how Pun-Pun does his tricks.

Dude seriously this RAW vs RAI has it's limits. Assume you have a piece of a random Deitiy in your spell component pouch? Pun-Pun is a mental excersise for sure but many players argue that he is actually legal per 3.5, whcih i am hoping to disprove.

Indeed, it's ridiculous, but it's RAW. You say you want prove it doesn't work, but so far you have just said how much you dislike RAW.

[Myth]

So are you saying then, that by RAW it is possible to cast Ice Assasin and duplicate Ao and, since he is under your complete conrol, just change the universe?

[Ranos]

I'm sorry, what exactly made you all think Pun Pun WASN'T Ao ?

And the Lady of Pain too, in his spare time. Every other god in the pantheon is just part of his cosmic puppet show. Omnipotent kobolds have to entertain themselves too.

[Radar]

(...)
The text specifically describes what is needed. It's obviously not simple fluff text like the pinch of powdered iron needed for Enlarge Person (the use of which is left to the player's imagination). Obviously if the spell costs 20,000 gp and 5000 XP the third component is intended to be equally taxing, albeint in a different way (needs the player's time and effort to be obtained, which could be the least or most expensive comodity). Sure by RAW if you can get Ice Assassin as a SLA you'd be able to skip this i guess. It's really up to the DM at this stage, as any normal means of getting it (SLA High Arcana for example) will have the cost upped. 50K Xp per casting anyone?

Dude seriously this RAW vs RAI has it's limits. Assume you have a piece of a random Deitiy in your spell component pouch? Pun-Pun is a mental excersise for sure but many players argue that he is actually legal per 3.5, whcih i am hoping to disprove.

Even if the above-mentioned methods don't cover the case, there is still the epic feat called Ignore Material Components, which solves the problem without any doubt. And since a venerable dragonwrought kobold counts as a true dragon of sufficient age category, he can take this feat all by himself (that, or just copy it through Ice Assasin or Manipulate Form). Also, there is a way to get a spell changed into SLA and get rid of the pesky material and XP cost: Dweomerkeeper does exactly the thing.

As far as the issue of Pun-Pun becoming an overdeity goes, by RAW Divine Rank over 20 equals overdeity. There is nothing there to differentiate deities by the source of their Divine Ranks. Who knows, maybe Ao actually is Pun-Pun. And yes, Ice Assassin is a badly written spell just as many other easily exploitable things in D&D.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the future doesn't exist yet, and that if you travel to the past you create an offshoot reality that is now different from yours.

If only it could be that simple. Unfortunetly future, past and present are not objective terms in physics, so all of them have to exist. It get's worse after adding Feynman to the mix - basically what happens now is the sum of all possible pasts and to determine, what should happen next, you sum all possible futures. You could sat, that all possible universes exist all at once and we just choose (probably) the way to go.

[Doc Roc]

I'm sorry, what exactly made you all think Pun Pun WASN'T Ao ?

And the Lady of Pain too, in his spare time. Every other god in the pantheon is just part of his cosmic puppet show. Omnipotent kobolds have to entertain themselves too.

Normally, we TOers opt to just ignore Sigil, because it's effectively an unpredictable element. But other than that, yeah. I've never been hugely fond of the Wish and the Word, because I felt like their core gimmick was basically dishonest. Besides, they really aren't as powerful as the TGDers think they are. I would wager that if we raised the level cap on ToS, they wouldn't even be in the top ten.

[lesser_minion]

The material needed for Pun-Pun was published after the material needed for the Wish.

Going by the assumption that a ridiculously cheesy character emerges when the requisite material is published, and that the first to emerge can and will prevent the ascension of any others, Pun-Pun is never able to ascend, and enters the arena a 1st level fallen kobold paladin.

Otherwise, both have the ability to emulate all of the abilities of the other, so this would never go anywhere.

[Myth]

Even if the above-mentioned methods don't cover the case, there is still the epic feat called Ignore Material Components, which solves the problem without any doubt. And since a venerable dragonwrought kobold counts as a true dragon of sufficient age category, he can take this feat all by himself (that, or just copy it through Ice Assasin or Manipulate Form). Also, there is a way to get a spell changed into SLA and get rid of the pesky material and XP cost: Dweomerkeeper does exactly the thing.

As far as the issue of Pun-Pun becoming an overdeity goes, by RAW Divine Rank over 20 equals overdeity. There is nothing there to differentiate deities by the source of their Divine Ranks. Who knows, maybe Ao actually is Pun-Pun. And yes, Ice Assassin is a badly written spell just as many other easily exploitable things in D&D.

Touche on the SLA, however I still think that Ao is superrior. Pun-Pun's Divine Ranks are infinite but measurable. Depending on how many times he did the proxy exploit, one can get his Divine Rank. If you were to stop time at any point, Pun-Pun would be at a large, but finite DR level. Ao has no publishd DR, now don't make me dig in the FR lore to quote on how he is basically the DM and can do anything. Pun-Pun is bound by mechanics, Ao is not. Even if both are Overdeites, one has the disadvantage of actually having stats. And it ain't Ao.

On a side note, Deities can cast Ice Assassin pretty much at will with Alter Reality. Does this mean they can all become Overdeities way before Pun-Pun? Doesn't that mean that Ao will actually intervene BEFORE they ascend and become his new neighbors, and leave the mortals to rot?

[Doc Roc]

The material needed for Pun-Pun was published after the material needed for the Wish.

So going by the assumption that any cheesegod character emerges when the requisite material is published, Pun-Pun is never able to ascend, and enters the arena a 1st level fallen kobold paladin.

Our usual assumption is that it's based on amount of xp needed. Both the Wish and the word are fundamentally higher level builds, which is one reason they aren't as well known. Simply put, the Wish is obsolete, and the Word is based on some questionable rulings.

[lesser_minion]

Our usual assumption is that it's based on amount of xp needed. Both the Wish and the word are fundamentally higher level builds, which is one reason they aren't as well known. Simply put, the Wish is obsolete, and the Word is based on some questionable rulings.

I know. My point is that it depends on what assumptions you make.

The Wish is simply a wish-abuse build, and most of the lower-level Pun-Puns (including the 1st-level Paladin one) depend on the same trick.

[Doc Roc]

I know. My point is that it depends on what assumptions you make.

It's worth bearing in mind that the core of The Wish is wish abuse, which is also the starting point for Pun-Pun.

One can do pun pun without wish abuse, actually, if you need to. It's annoying, and difficult, but doable.

[lesser_minion]

One can do pun pun without wish abuse, actually, if you need to. It's annoying, and difficult, but doable.

I know that -- IIRC, the least cheesy Pun-Pun build is the egotist one using metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer (least cheesy in that until you get Manipulate Form, absolutely nothing you do can be remotely construed as against RAI, let alone RAW).

But the wish-abuse builds are still generally lower level -- including the 1st-level Paladin build.

I find it rather amusing that a supposedly Forgotten Realms character has a prestige class that's associated with Greyhawk.

[candycorn]

Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

That seems pretty blatant RAW to me.

The problem with that is... It opens up "Approval Required" for pun pun to even take a Divine Rank at all. If you need an explicit yes, then the default answer is no.

Which means that in any system that requires consent to become a god, it can be assumed that Pun Pun is not able to attain salient divine abilities.

[Telonius]

yes, but the only way a D&D world can properly exist, if we assume pun-pun to be a possible outcome, is one of 4 things:

A) pun pun just doesn't care about the world enough to be a jerk about his deus ex machina powers so no one ever tries to stop him from his evil and terrifying master plan of "i'm simply going to watch the world and it's people because they're funny".

B) diverging timelines keep the world from imploding. when someone goes to kill pun-pun it splits the timeline in 2: one where PP is alive and well as his assassin is destroyed and one where PP has never existed in the first place.

C) pun pun is bored of existance and lets himself gets killed. teh endz.

D) the future is not set in stone. if you can predict X from happening, you can probably stop it. just because punpun is ready to ascend doesn't mean he will in the future.

Subset of A), used in all of my campaigns:
Punpun has already ascended. Having granted himself an arbitrary amount of Wisdom, he has realized that he is, in fact, a theoretical build created by a bunch of nerds on the internet. He grants himself the power of "Smite Cheese" to prevent anyone from approaching his level of power, and becomes the Avatar of the DM within the gaming world.