Mandatory Extreme Specialization

[Tinydwarfman]

I was thinking about making wizards in my future games all have a form of extreme specialization. They would have one primary and two secondary schools, and nothing else. However, each school already has two associations with it, to prevent people from choosing the broadest schools. How would this limit/nerf wizards? I'm not talking about equality, just a general versatility nerf.

My proposed school associations: (Primary: secondary, secondary)
Transmutation: Necromancy, Enchantment
Conjuration: Evocation, Illusion
Evocation: Conjuration, Abjuration
Abjuration: Evocation, Transmutation
Necromancy: Transmutation, Illusion
Illusion: Conjuration, Enchantment
Divination: Abjuration, Transmutation

How's that? Not perfect, I know, but it seems pretty balanced. Subbing out of schools available on request of course.

[Quirp]

I think it would reduce their versatility, but since all get transmutation or conjuration as secondary schools a wizard would still be stronger/more versertile than a sorcerer and therefore still tier 1. I would say (although you would get balance problems) that you should divide into primary, secondary and tertiary schools. Then you could say that a wizard may only learn spells of a specific maximum level of those schools: for example primary (lv0-lv9), secondary (lv0-lv6) and tertiary (lv0-lv3). It is complicated, but hopefully doable although some schools (conjuration, transmutation) should either be limited to be secondary or tertiary schools or make a wizard lose his tertiary school when used as the focus of specialisation.

[Rannil]

My first thought: Necromancy and Illusion were opposed schools.

That asides you miss a specialist. Enchantment, which would get Necromancy and Conjuration, if I am right?

It does sounds like it hurts versatility and non focused sounds better, cause you can get both transmutation and conjuration.

[gallagher]

I was thinking about making wizards in my future games all have a form of extreme specialization. They would have one primary and two secondary schools, and nothing else. However, each school already has two associations with it, to prevent people from choosing the broadest schools. How would this limit/nerf wizards? I'm not talking about equality, just a general versatility nerf.

My proposed school associations: (Primary: secondary, secondary)
Transmutation: Necromancy, Enchantment
Conjuration: Evocation, Illusion
Evocation: Conjuration, Abjuration
Abjuration: Evocation, Transmutation
Necromancy: Transmutation, Illusion
Illusion: Conjuration, Enchantment
Divination: Abjuration, Transmutation

How's that not perfect, I know, but it seems pretty balanced. Subbing out of schools available on request of course.

well, in order to maybe allow for a little more versatility, you could make divination a standard secondary school that tehy must have (kind of like how specialist wizards cant get rid of it as a banned school). then they can now choose their secondary school because they dont have the broadness of being able to take large schools (like how conjuration is effectively enchantment)

now, you can also say that someone is so well versed in their primary school, that they can once per day spontaniously cast their "signature spell" which they can add to the list of their signature spells when they gain new levels. they should also be able to cast cantrips spontaniously, but thats just me

for example, i am a transmutation specialist with abjuration as my secondary school, and i also have to have divination. i have my spells prepared for the day, and can cast up to third level spells, meaning i have 3 "signature spells" that i can choose from to cast once per day. the list i choose from (since trans is my primary school) will be Fly (3rd lvl) Rope Trick (2nd lvl) and Feather fall (1st lvl). i get to spontaniously cast only one of these once per day, and i chose these three because they are good "OH @#$%" spells.

[Saph]

It'd hurt their power quite a bit - most of the best Wizard spells are Transmutation or Conjuration, so having to only pick one or the other would be painful. This in turn would give wizard players a motivation to dig through lots of splatbooks for extra spells to fill the gaps.

I think I'd probably avoid playing a Wizard with those limitations, although we generally don't find class balance to be a huge issue in our games anyway.

[Ozymandias9]

The fundamental problem with a system like this is that the spells and the school lists simply aren't themselves balanced to the degree necessary for this to work in the kind of game where it would be an issue. It would hurt the batman wizard to some extent, but wizard casting would still be T1, and with some attention it would still be very high T1 for some schools.

[Il_Vec]

My initial reaction to this was: Ok, no big problems, most of my spellbook is already Transmutation, Necromancy, Enchantment anyways...

Then I think: But I just lost the possibility to enter Abjurant Champion, Knight Phantom, Loremaster, Archmage... That's harsh...

And then: How would this interact with Arcane Disciple?

[nedz]

I like this and have run something similar in the distant past (2E).
It does rein in Wizards a little, but also adds flavour.
In this world view Wizards focus their studies which reflects the acedemic nature of the class. I'd consider resticting their access to secondary schools as they progress to enhance this effect.

[Tinydwarfman]

Saph, if you didn't play a wizard, what would you play? (keep in mind that I would also be nerfing sorcerers somewhat. Not sure how yet.)

[Siosilvar]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's enough on its own; some schools are still strictly better than others (Divination, for example, is plenty defensible, but it has nothing much else it can do) but themed lists are a good idea (see Dread Necro or Beguiler for good examples).

If I were playing... I'd just pick Abjuration or Evocation (depending on whether I wanted Conjuration or Transmutation) and play as normal. Those are the schools I use most anyway.

[Mongoose87]

Saph, if you didn't play a wizard, what would you play? (keep in mind that I would also be nerfing sorcerers somewhat. Not sure how yet.)

How about an archivist?

[Keld Denar]

I think I could play a wizard who ONLY cast Conjourations, and be relatively happy. Sure, you miss out on some goodies like Haste, Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Silent Image, but you still maintain nearly all of the good battlefield control and disables. Heck, I probably wouldn't even touch much out of the summoning subschool of Conjouration unless it was to summon a utility creature to replicate a spell I couldn't cast myself that I really needed.

I'd say I would consider giving the Transmuter a try, but I just can't fathom the loss of Conjouration in any way, shape, or form. Its just to massive a blow for how I play my Wizards.

[Bayar]

Transmutation is the best of the lot. It lets you say "Screw the necromancy, I got polymorph !".

Dont know why Divination loses 2 schools though.

[Saph]

Saph, if you didn't play a wizard, what would you play? (keep in mind that I would also be nerfing sorcerers somewhat. Not sure how yet.)

Definitely not a sorcerer, then. If I wanted a utility caster I'd go for an Archivist, Cleric, or Druid.

I think I could play a wizard who ONLY cast Conjourations, and be relatively happy.

Well, I usually play buffer wizards, and most of the good buff spells are Transmutation. Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Haste, Fly . . .

[Siosilvar]

Transmutation is the best of the lot. It lets you say "Screw the necromancy, I got polymorph !".

Dont know why Divination loses 2 schools though.

Those aren't the lost schools. Those are the only 3 schools you can cast from.

[Prime32]

What if you learn and prepare spells from your non-associated schools as if they were a level or two higher, but they gain none of the benefits of an increased level when you cast them?

[Kurald Galain]

How's that? Not perfect, I know, but it seems pretty balanced. Subbing out of schools available on request of course.

Looks very playable. Perhaps it is easier to tell players they can pick any three schools they want, as long as they don't take both conjuration and transmutation.

Do you allow Master Specialist and Focused Specialist?

[Mr.Moron]

It won't. When it comes to the best schools (Conjuration, Transmutation, Illusion) you could limit wizards to just one school and they'd still be immensely powerful. Heck, even the "Bad" wizards schools aren't all that bad. The only reason they get flak is that the other schools do so much.

[Tinydwarfman]

So, do you guys think that this would be tier 3? Probably very high 3 or low 2, just comparing it to a beguiler. Also, any ideas on how to limit archivists or sorcerers? Druids would have the mandatory Shapeshift variant, and Clerics... well DMM is banned, but I'm not sure what else.

[Siosilvar]

These could range anywhere from a high 3 to a middling 1, depending on what you pick and how many sources are available for spells; some of them are just that good.

[deuxhero]

I think it's called "Warmage" "Beguiler" and "Dread Necromancer".

Also good luck playing a wizard without read magic (it's why you can't ban divination).

[Tinydwarfman]

I think it's called "Warmage" "Beguiler" and "Dread Necromancer".

Also good luck playing a wizard without read magic (it's why you can't ban divination).

I do know of these classes, and have made reference to them earlier.

Of course, read magic will be changed to Universal school.

[Siosilvar]

I think it's called "Warmage" "Beguiler" and "Dread Necromancer".

Also good luck playing a wizard without read magic (it's why you can't ban divination).

The "Universal" school exists for just this purpose... move Read Magic to it (not sure why it wasn't there in the first place). Not that it's really necessary when a Spellcraft check will let you decode "a written spell (including a scroll)". How often have you made checks to figure out what a symbol or glyph of warding was?

[deuxhero]

I do know of these classes, and have made reference to them earlier.

Of course, read magic will be changed to Universal school.

I only checked for Warmage/war mage and Dread Necro (the one with a b is a pain to spell)


I've heard mention of a focused specialist (knock out 3 schools) dual specializing (changeling ACF, knocks out one more school than just specializing) inchantrix (knocks out another) red wizard (which needs an extra feat to qualify for, but changeling can avoid the human only part, also knocks out ability to learn spells from another school), never seen anything about it beyond a mention though.