Nerfing Casting, a little

[Deastorm]

An idea I've been toying around with to balance out casters and noncasters, is to have all spells level 5 and higher increase their casting times to the next highest (1 action to 1 round, 1 round to 2 rounds, etc), and change Quicken Spell to go on whatever the spell originally took. I think 5 is good for that's when the casters start to really hit their stride, and it won't interfere with the hybrid casters.

I'm sure this isn't anything too original, but I hadn't noticed it as a topic, and wanted to see what kind of feedback it would get. Thanks!

[dextercorvia]

The problem I see with this, is not balance based. It is not fun to announce you are casting a spell and then wait while everyone else gets 3 turns before you can go again.

Misunderstood the suggestion.

[SurlySeraph]

It'll help a bit, but not much. Wizards get plenty of defensive spells that make them not really need to move much; if you're already flying well out of melee reach with Wind Wall and (Lesser) Globe of Invulnerability up, there's not an awful lot that most monsters can do to you unless they have got Dispel Magic and a decent CL. Preventing them from casting two spells per round via Quicken is good, but doesn't really slow them down much.

[dextercorvia]

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting a time bump for each level the spell was over 5. Nevermind, it won't make any difference. Most spell in combat are Standard Actions, increasing them to Full Round Action does nothing really. There is always Rapid Spell.

[Gametime]

It wouldn't be full-round, if I'm understanding correctly; it would be 1 round. There's a world of difference. Full-round action casting times hardly hurt at all (well, except druids and clerics, who do like to move). 1 round casting times make spells much easier to disrupt, since you have to deal with the full attacks of everyone that can reach you.

It's a good idea. It won't really fix the problem - casters have enough defenses at their disposal that this change is likely to just make them spend more spell on ensuring that attacks won't hit them while they're casting - but it helps. Note that this makes some immediate action spells useless, but since immediate actions are, generally, part of the problem, this isn't a huge loss.

[sofawall]

1 action to 1 round

waitwhat? Swift action casts are 1 round, same as standard action casts?

[Soras Teva Gee]

As written there is a major loophole with metamagic since it doesn't change the level of the spell, meaning many of the spells people use say Quicken with would be unaffected anyways. Even then Solid Fog and Divine Power for example are 4th level spells for example.

Personally I'd make all spells be full rounds to take effect, with an exception for damage-only spells as "battle magic" or something. And some longer

You'd still need to address the 15-minute adventuring day and warned casters getting lots of buffs right before battle, but those can be dealt with via creative DMing without too much trouble.

Consider limiting the duration of anything not measured in rounds/level. Also consider certain types of effects having a penalty to their DC. And to make monsters more difficult "SR: Yes" for everything. And everything gets a saving throw of some sort, even if just there's no such thing as touch AC.

Alone you idea is not enough but you can still make casting a riskier move with a bit more.

[Curmudgeon]

I suggest the following, regarding metamagic reducers: no individual metamagic effect can be reduced below +1 level, ever. That includes all the things like Sanctum Spell, Invisible Spell, and Divine Metamagic that are used to game the system. So you can get Quicken Spell down to +1, but no amount of Arcane Thesis or Incantatrix shenanigans can make something with 3 metamagic feats cause less than +3 spell levels.

[Gametime]

waitwhat? Swift action casts are 1 round, same as standard action casts?

I think he means "action" in the 3.0 sense, where it would now mean "standard action." Even making swift action spells standard actions would be a pretty huge nerf to some of them, and would outright obsolete others; on the other hand, this isn't necessarily a bad thing if your goal is balance.

Also, if you want to nerf casting, I can't recommend getting rid of Persistent Spell highly enough. On it's own, it's really not a huge game changer, but it's just such an easy out in so many ways.

[awa]

its a big improvment shure it wont stop the biggest abuses but it makes casting in combat much harder. If you combine this with outlawing other problematic spells its good. The one thing i would worry about is to many broad chages to the casting system of this nature will criple charecters with low optimization. for example a healbot cleric will be hard hit by a change like this not every wizard is batman.

[oxybe]

all this does is have less spells cast during battle and more cast pre-battle, or have the caster create items that are use-activated to make it moot.

to nerf casters, nerf the biggest offending spells.

[Soras Teva Gee]

all this does is have less spells cast during battle and more cast pre-battle, or have the caster create items that are use-activated to make it moot.

to nerf casters, nerf the biggest offending spells.

I'd like to point out there are major assumptions that go into casting before the fight are not hard to subvert from a DMs perspective.

Likewise creating items (and for that matter several spells) is as easy as making XP a DM award only, and there not being a lot of slack. Or time to make them in the story. It wouldn't be a stretch to make anything that casts for you like a wand as being subject to the same disruptions as you casting.

Though obviously there are a lot of spells that need work. Even all of them if you get into say questioning the idea of by spell level DCs.

[oxybe]

I'd like to point out there are major assumptions that go into casting before the fight are not hard to subvert from a DMs perspective.

Likewise creating items (and for that matter several spells) is as easy as making XP a DM award only, and there not being a lot of slack. Or time to make them in the story. It wouldn't be a stretch to make anything that casts for you like a wand as being subject to the same disruptions as you casting.

Though obviously there are a lot of spells that need work. Even all of them if you get into say questioning the idea of by spell level DCs.

with the length of durations some spells have, you can cast them before even entering the general vicinity of the problematic area (or once you've cleared a "safe zone") and still have it going when you leave. plus if your casters are always getting jumped while they're doing their prep casting, prepare to have cries of "foul" from the players. a 1 round spell casting time is only 6 seconds. even a 1 minute casting is not a long time.

in combat it takes forever, out of combat it's quite fast.

as for crafting/XP thing, if you're going to talk about assumptions, yes i'm going to assume we're going to be using the standard XP rules unless stated otherwise.

[Soras Teva Gee]

with the length of durations some spells have, you can cast them before even entering the general vicinity of the problematic area (or once you've cleared a "safe zone") and still have it going when you leave. plus if your casters are always getting jumped while they're doing their prep casting, prepare to have cries of "foul" from the players. a 1 round spell casting time is only 6 seconds. even a 1 minute casting is not a long time.

in combat it takes forever, out of combat it's quite fast.

as for crafting/XP thing, if you're going to talk about assumptions, yes i'm going to assume we're going to be using the standard XP rules unless stated otherwise.

Be a touch more creative is all.

Its not unreasonable to make time (and movement, etc) outside of combat completely at the DM discretion. If you know about an encounter from good scouting then sure you can prep if you are reasonably close. But add in positioning for the attack, the attack, a bit of rest after, searching corpses for loot, and moving on... you can deal with anything with a round or minute duration fairly easily as only being good for one encounter which you know is coming. Hours are still an issue, but I'm not suggesting merely one solution here.

There's still ways to subvert that of course. It a lot harder to deal with a level 20 who's stacked enough perks to double his CL to 40 then a vanilla CL 10 on a level 10 wizard. But you don't have to deal with every case to make a reasonably effective solution.

Combine vague time with an occasional surprise encounter, enemies who can counter magic in various ways, and say time sensitive plots to stand against the 15 minute day (or just house rule that you can't rest whenever) and you can encourage your casters to reserve their spells for the really serious encounters. You don't need to, and shouldn't, lock it out every time but variety keeps it from being assumed victory.

I won't claim complete effectiveness, there's generally a spell for everything, but not every caster will have them ready every day. And a caster relying on some of the worst cheese would be thrown out by anyone that cared in the first place I'd think.

There's something of a misconception that casting isn't supposed to be more powerful, which isn't true. The biggest problem with 3.5 is that what weaknesses there are aren't that exploitable anymore.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*

Even at 10th level, if I've got me some hour/level or even 10 minute/level spells, I should be good for any of that sort of detailed, "spell killing" prep time.

[oxybe]

i'm not talking duration, but about the 6 second time span for casting some spells, some being even less if we think about it logically since "1 standard action" casting is only part of your 6 second round (i will note that logic+d&d magic usually involves the death of a catgirl or four, but i digress since the furries generally have it coming ).

a caster buffing/preparing 5 spells is 30 seconds. i've spent more then 30 seconds thinking and typing out these sentences and double-checking firefox's spell-checker. i've spent far more then a minute rereading this paragraph to make sure it's legible in english (my train of thought runs in another language).

what you're talking about is a HUGE coincidence. that somehow in this one minute timeframe, generally time a person would take to catch a quick breather, they are jumped, and this happens often enough to screw with the players? at this point my characters would just walk without pants on hoping to give whatever scrying wizard a face full of wang and "get off my back, ya [female hygiene product]".

the "grab whatever isn't nailed" mentality only really works for the lower levels when you're strapped for cash & magic items, and even then you tend to just nuke 'em all and detect magic later. you don't pick at corpses while the battle rages: on you make sure it's clear, let the fighters stuff things in bags of holding as the wizards cast spells if required.

as for duration of spells, a D&D party on a murderricane is generally a well-oiled machine or swat/seals/whatever team: line up next to door, prep what you need, bust down door, lay down fire, check for survivors, proceed to next. repeat until clear. few parties that act like a bunch of very white kids pretending to be hardcore black gangstas live long. they get their **** in gear, clean up, scavenge what they want and leave with their spoils.

unless the party is in for a long campaign things will be very bloody, very fast and over about as quickly as it begins. if they're in it for the long run, expect the use of scrolls, wands, potions, ect... to supplement the normal or special casting routines.

the strategies will vary based on the specifics of the situation, but catching a caster with his pants down usually only happens if the caster feels so inclined. an unbuffed, un prepared caster deserves the sword between the ribs he's going to get.

[Gibli]

3.5 has come a long, long way since the old days. Even since 3E we have seen a cap on damage dice from low-level spells, a nerf on haste, a limit on metamagic stacking, and HD caps on many save-or-die spells.

I cast Empowered, Empowered, Empowered fireball. Empowered, Empowered, Empowered fireball. Quickened, Empowered fireball. All monsters in the area take 500+ damage... I'm out of spells now, I need to rest.

3E was broken, true, but I frankly have no beef with casters being more powerful on paper: It is trivial not to play into the arcanist's preparatory casting, Spell Resistance and Spell Immunity are a DM's friend, as is counterspelling/dispel magic/antimagic field (you'd be amazed how many well-laid plans were utterly destroyed by a greater dispel magic or 2). IMO casting doesn't need too much nerfing. Getting rid of Quicken Spell and Persistent Spell metamagic feats might be enough. Yes, I think many of us have a special place in our hearts for Quicken Spell (and Time Stop), but it is potentially quite broken. At least make it "You can take it if the DM says you can" (which technically should hold true for every feat, spell, and character option).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

3.5 has come a long, long way since the old days. Even since 3E we have seen a cap on damage dice from low-level spells, a nerf on haste, a limit on metamagic stacking, and HD caps on many save-or-die spells.

I cast Empowered, Empowered, Empowered fireball. Empowered, Empowered, Empowered fireball. Quickened, Empowered fireball. All monsters in the area take 500+ damage... I'm out of spells now, I need to rest.

3E was broken, true, but I frankly have no beef with casters being more powerful on paper: It is trivial not to play into the arcanist's preparatory casting, Spell Resistance and Spell Immunity are a DM's friend, as is counterspelling/dispel magic/antimagic field (you'd be amazed how many well-laid plans were utterly destroyed by a greater dispel magic or 2). IMO casting doesn't need too much nerfing. Getting rid of Quicken Spell and Persistent Spell metamagic feats might be enough. Yes, I think many of us have a special place in our hearts for Quicken Spell (and Time Stop), but it is potentially quite broken. At least make it "You can take it if the DM says you can" (which technically should hold true for every feat, spell, and character option).

Uuuh, you know you can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once, right?

[oxybe]

spell immunity & resistance, as well as AMF, aren't solutions to the problem though. these aren't nerfs, they're effectively telling the player grab a DS and sit out the encounter as his powerful mage is now a commoner in a funny hat.

the problem is the spells themselves, not the method.

the fact that the evil dictator can only use his nuke on every second tuesday and within the presence of his cousin steve doesn't stop the fact that said man has access to a nuke.

[Gnaeus]

spell immunity & resistance, as well as AMF, aren't solutions to the problem though. these aren't nerfs, they're effectively telling the player grab a DS and sit out the encounter as his powerful mage is now a commoner in a funny hat.

Against a new player, you are right.

Against many of the people on this board, SR and an AMF is barely a speedbump. A well built wizard has plans for dealing with those guys.

[Gibli]

Uuuh, you know you can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once, right?

You could in 3e:

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can use multiple metamagic feats on a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Against a new player, you are right.

Against many of the people on this board, SR and an AMF is barely a speedbump. A well built wizard has plans for dealing with those guys.

Why does this make me think "Conjuration: There's an App Spell for that?"

[oxybe]

Against a new player, you are right.

Against many of the people on this board, SR and an AMF is barely a speedbump. A well built wizard has plans for dealing with those guys.

which is a problem in it's own right. not every player comes from the internet, and not every player cares to research the game's mechanics as in depth as some of us have, or even peruse our findings. or understand the theories and choses to ignore them for whatever reason.

the newbie or guy who just wants to play a thematic fire-mage-tim-the-enchanter is going to find himself crying all the way to the "can i roll up a new PC?" as the guy sitting two spots away from him is still working like John Deer made of Spiral Power.

just because the veterans are nonplussed about it doesn't make it a non-issue. it either makes you useless or you ignore it, which is why AMF is such a boring spell.

[Gnaeus]

which is a problem in it's own right. not every player comes from the internet, and not every player cares to research the game's mechanics as in depth as some of us have, or even peruse our findings. or understand the theories and choses to ignore them for whatever reason.

True enough. I suppose its best case application is making the veteran diversify his spells a little bit more than he otherwise would, but it isn't even great at that.

It is also a disincentive to play the better balanced middle tiers. A bard, beguiler or necro has less options in that fight than a Sorc/Wis.

[oxybe]

True enough. I suppose its best case application is making the veteran diversify his spells a little bit more than he otherwise would, but it isn't even great at that.

It is also a disincentive to play the better balanced middle tiers. A bard, beguiler or necro has less options in that fight than a Sorc/Wis.

exactly. the problem isn't that the caster can cast 10 spells a minute.

the problem is Sleep. the problem is Grease. the problem is Glitterdust. Gate. Time Stop. the entire Polymorph line. knocks & the various other skill replacement spells. attitude modifiers (ranging from "makes friendly" to "total domination").

3rd ed tried to make one class be the eponymous "wizard". one that can be a a warrior (transmutation school), a diplomat (enchantment school), a spy (illusion school+some div/trans), a soothsayer (divination), a zookeeper (conjuration), a pyrotechnician (evocation) and a crypt defiler (necromancy).

on their own, they're generally fine with a few problematic spells (conjuration... transmutation... ) but when a player decides to not play up an archetype but cherry pick the best from among them, then you have a problem. it's not the wizard class the problem, it's his varied spell list.

you want to nerf the wizard, sorc & cleric? nerf their spell lists. you want to nerf the druid? you can't, you need to rewrite that entire class from the ground up... seriously WTF mate, WTF?

[Lord Vukodlak]

3rd ed tried to make one class be the eponymous "wizard". one that can be a a warrior (transmutation school), a diplomat (enchantment school), a spy (illusion school+some div/trans), a soothsayer (divination), a zookeeper (conjuration), a pyrotechnician (evocation) and a crypt defiler (necromancy).

You think the power gap is big now? try second edition, the same schools of magic existed. Non-casters got even less abilities. It was exactly the same in 2nd edition and probably quite similar in 1st but I can't speak to that.

[oxybe]

You think the power gap is big now? try second edition, the same schools of magic existed. Non-casters got even less abilities. It was exactly the same in 2nd edition and probably quite similar in 1st but I can't speak to that.

preaching to the choir my friend. while i've only started collecting 1st ed AD&D this year, i cut my gaming teeth on 2nd ed.

oh the glory days of the TWF, Dart specialized, Wild Fighting Elven Fighter/Mage/Rogue. you were so cute in a "WTF are you doing" kinda way.

[Gibli]

You think the power gap is big now? try second edition, the same schools of magic existed. Non-casters got even less abilities. It was exactly the same in 2nd edition and probably quite similar in 1st but I can't speak to that.

Well, I'd rather have a power gap than that over-the-top balancing of 4th Ed. I mean, change the flavour text a bit and hope people won't notice that all the classes are excactly the same?

Now, a properly built Frenzied Berserker can be uttlerly devastating, as can a Thri-Kreen Dervish (with the Shadow Blade feat from ToB). The problem is not the classes, the problem is the players who doesn't limit their min-maxing to the boards, but insist on bringing broken characters to the gaming table.

Which is why the most powerful weapon in the DM's arsenal remains to say no to any character option or spell that would make the game less enjoyable for the rest of the group.

[oxybe]

Well, I'd rather have a power gap than that over-the-top balancing of 4th Ed. I mean, change the flavour text a bit and hope people won't notice that all the classes are excactly the same?

Now, a properly built Frenzied Berserker can be uttlerly devastating, as can a Thri-Kreen Dervish (with the Shadow Blade feat from ToB). The problem is not the classes, the problem is the players who doesn't limit their min-maxing to the boards, but insist on bringing broken characters to the gaming table.

Which is why the most powerful weapon in the DM's arsenal remains to say no to any character option or spell that would make the game less enjoyable for the rest of the group.

i personally much rather the balancing of 4th ed then the total disregard to the actual issues of the game 3rd ed or 2nd ed had. in 2nd ed it just took longer to notice them due to the speed of levelling

as for "change the flavor text", this is a time honored tradition in gaming (especially more setting-neutral systems) and to be honest, you don't need a bunch of different or disjointed mechanics to represent different ideas.

while i'll admit the general mechanics in 4th ed are the same throughout the classes, the presentation and the method they each pull it off is different. play a Swordmage like you would a Fighter and you'll see the difference. 4th plays a lot better then it reads.

[Hague]

There are plenty of ways of dealing with people whom walk around with a ton of buffs or abuse teleport spells:

Dispelling Screen
Greater Dispelling Screen
Reaving Dispel
Slashing Dispel
Anticipate Teleportation
Greater Anticipate Teleportation
Permanent Zone of Respite

Notably, spell turrets that cast dispel are notoriously difficult to find without a Rogue with proper Search ranks. Is it that gemstone in the wall? Is it the face carved onto the ceiling? Is it any of the damned flagstones on this entire floor? Who knows?

And guess what? It casts it every round!

Polymorph is broken, use Rich's replacement rules in the Gaming link on the left. Though, personally I disagree with the "can't be immune to critical hits" part. If I change into a ball of fire, you can rest assured that I have no organs to spit with a dagger.