Gish Handbook?

[Navigator]

I spent some time looking for a gish handbook, but cannot seem to find any. I looked on the old WotC CO board links, and tried some googlefu, but most of the links are now broken.

I ask because I have interest in making one, but if there's an up to date handbook floating around I would contribute to that instead.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think solo is making one at BG, but iI am not sure, there are some class specific ones though, they might help you

Swiftblade
Duskblade
Suel Arcanmach

[Nero24200]

One little pet peeve I've always had about D'n'D...

...if you define "Gish" as being a class with

• Decent BAB
• Ability to cast spells
• Ability to cast spells in armour

Then druids and clerics are pretty good gishes.

Having said that if you're looking for strictly arcane gishes, then to my knowledge no such guides exist, but certain Prc's can really provide a bit of lift (with Swiftblade and Abjurant Champion being the two best in my opinion).

[gorfnab]

Here are some gish builds I posted over on 339.

Spoiler

Show

Bard 7/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist, Eldritch Knight, or Knight Phantom 3

Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoneix Mage 8

Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 4/ Ajurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

Crusader 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Crusader 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 8

Crusader 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

Paladin 2/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 9

Sorcerer 5 / Crusader 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 4 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Jade Phoenix Mage 6

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5


Bard 7/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Sacred Exorcist 3

Bard 7/ Paladin of Freedom 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

Paladin 2/ Battle Sorcerer 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 9

Here are some working links to previous gish threads
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...Gishes%29?pg=1
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=7704.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=5520.0

[PId6]

I see way too many Battle Sorcerers on that list.

[Siosilvar]

One little pet peeve I've always had about D'n'D...

...if you define "Gish" as being a class with
[edited out]
Then druids and clerics are pretty good gishes.

Gish was a term for a githyanki fighter/magic-user of... 6th/7th level, I believe, in AD&D. Hence the normal consideration of arcane-only classes. That plus a divine caster doesn't really give you the same flavor of combining two different traditions; the divine casters can already fight and cast spells right out of the box.

[AvatarZero]

Here's an old thread that didn't disappear when Wizards reorganised their forums for 4th editon. I don't think it was on that CO list.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...potlight:_Gish

My favourite gish prestige classes (it's always about the prestige class, isn't it?) are the Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle) and the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I see way too many Battle Sorcerers on that list.

I was hoping that maybe they were using Battle Sorcerer to enter Swiftblade with only one to four levels, but, alas, such is not the case.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Two of the best +16 BAB 9th level spells builds:

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4

Feats of choice would include Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Combat Reflexes, Arcane Strike, and Practiced Spellcaster. For a spontaneous Gish you should consider Arcane Preparation to get access to exalted spells like (Greater) Luminous Armor. Use buffs and be sure to take a few of the stronger AoE save-or-lose spells like Web and Black Tentacles. Be sure to use Wraithstrike, which is particularly good with a Lesser Rod of Extend or especially Persistent. Note the wording on using metamagic with spontaneous spells, if the spell's casting time is a standard action or longer it's increased with metamagic, but spells with a swift action casting time are unaffected when used with metamagic feats or rods.

[Keld Denar]

You forgot a couple feats. Minor Shapeshift is AMAZING for any gish with access to 4th level spells. It provides so many temp HP that its almost like having fast healing.

For Sorcadin gishes, you also get access to Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist. You can use this to power Law Devotion or Divine Might. I'd recommend against both, as this will run you out of TU attempts in a single combat. Law Devotion + PA is generally stronger than Divine Might unless your Cha is in the high 30s to low 40s or you have very plentiful natural weapons, but its still pretty close either way. Sorcadins could also take Travel Devotion for pseudo-pounce. Move and full attack your heart out.

[Navigator]

Every link posted is great, especially the one by 339's shadow_mage_02. However, my problem is that SM's handbook is considerably out of date, and all the other links, while enlightening, are about specific builds. There are very many resources for Gish builds, but no comprehensive guides.

One little pet peeve I've always had about D'n'D...

...if you define "Gish" as being a class with...

I do agree that "Gish", in general, is poorly defined. What I particularly had in mind was the arcane flavored Gish, but my interest stretches to divine as well. I suppose that the first major difficulty in crafting a handbook is settling on a definition, which is done pretty well here. Though, I really would have a hard time arguing against Cleric 20 or Bard 20 qualifying as a Gish.

@Keld Denar: Yes, Minor Shapeshift is one of the first feats I think of for a Gish, save for Arcane Strike. I don't remember where I originally saw this feat on a Gish, but it really is underrated.

[Optimystik]

Where's the psionics love?

Ardent 10/Slayer 10 with Mantle Substitution and Dominant Ideal.

Spoiler

Show

BAB 17
ML 19
21 powers known up to 9th level
5 mantles (Melee-friendly ones, naturally)
343 base PP
Proficiency with all armor, martial weapons, and shields

[herrhauptmann]

Every link posted is great, especially the one by 339's shadow_mage_02. However, my problem is that SM's handbook is considerably out of date, and all the other links, while enlightening, are about specific builds. There are very many resources for Gish builds, but no comprehensive guides.

Now I may be wrong, but I'd say that a gish is far too broad a category for as single guide to cover everything.
Just start with casting classes used in a gish, each has its own advantage. A guide would have to specify each one. Then the melee class(es) used. You could start casting, then take a PrC for your melee. You could start melee, then take a PrC for your casting.
Look at how extensive some of the guides are, perhaps "Being Bane: Guide to barbarians". And that's just using a single base class.

[gorfnab]

I see way too many Battle Sorcerers on that list.

I originally had those posted over on 339 on a thread where the OP was really wanting a battle sorcerer build but was also looking for other gish builds.

[PId6]

I originally had those posted over on 339 on a thread where the OP was really wanting a battle sorcerer build but was also looking for other gish builds.

That makes more sense. Still, people really shouldn't play battle sorcerer if they can help it. There's basically no reason to use it besides intentional self-nerf.

[Gorgondantess]

That makes more sense. Still, people really shouldn't play battle sorcerer if they can help it. There's basically no reason to use it besides intentional self-nerf.

...Battle sorcerer can be good. Emphasis on can: I've used it in a few builds. It's good for when you desperately need the extra BAB, or are trying to make a gish where you're going for a PrC spell list, but need spellcasting to access it somehow; I've used it in conjunction with Sublime Chord, once.

But, yeah, in general, battle sorcerer is worthless.

[SanjiWatsuki]

Thinking about Arcane Gishes...

I was trying to see what I can do with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. First off, I decided to take Aasimar savage progression as the race for the LA+0 and the bonuses to my CHA. Furthermore, as an outsider, I get martial weapon proficiency. Is there anything else I can do to improve the progression of...

Stalwart Battle Sorc 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Adjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X/Spellsword 1? I don't really know what else to place as the 19th level.

I think that would give +19 BAB, only losing one to the 3/4 progression of the Battle Sorc early on, and 19 CL, only losing one level to the first level of EK.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Thinking about Arcane Gishes...

I was trying to see what I can do with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. First off, I decided to take Aasimar savage progression as the race for the LA+0 and the bonuses to my CHA. Furthermore, as an outsider, I get martial weapon proficiency. Is there anything else I can do to improve the progression of...

Stalwart Battle Sorc 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Adjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X/Spellsword 1? I don't really know what else to place as the 19th level.

I think that would give +19 BAB, only losing one to the 3/4 progression of the Battle Sorc early on, and 19 CL, only losing one level to the first level of EK.

The issue with those sorcerer variants is that they leave the sorcerer with even less spells known. The fact that you only have four levels of the benefits for 20 levels of the detriments hurts. Bad. Now, if you're using your typical Dragonwrought cheese, they became fantastically better than a wizard... because then your sorcerer levels give wizard casting, removing the penalties from said ACFs.

[PId6]

Stalwart Battle Sorc 4/Eldritch Knight 2/Adjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X/Spellsword 1? I don't really know what else to place as the 19th level.

I think that would give +19 BAB, only losing one to the 3/4 progression of the Battle Sorc early on, and 19 CL, only losing one level to the first level of EK.

Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer are both terrible for exactly the reasons Thrice Dead Cat mentioned (Battle more so than Stalwart). They give you one extra BAB and a bit of HP for 19 levels of penalties. Even using them for early entry isn't really worth it.

The typical Soradin build is already better. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. You end up with CL 18 and 16 BAB, which is still better casting than the Battle Sorcerer build because it doesn't have Stalwart/Battle penalties, and it gets Divine Grace. It also frees up your race since Paladin gives proficiencies anyway.

Another good build is Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5. 17 CL, 17 BAB, and you get Swiftblade awesomeness like extra standard actions. And the casting is still better than the Battle Sorcerer build, especially if you go specialist or focused specialist in Conjuration or Transmutation.

There are a lot of good gish PrCs these days, so there's really no reason to use Eldritch Knight. Losing a CL and not having any class features is pretty terrible as far as gishes go, so you'd much rather take classes like Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, Sacred Exorcist, Jade Phoenix Mage, Knight Phantom, etc.