Results 1 to 30 of 35
Thread: DnD Gestalt chars
-
2010-07-01, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender
DnD Gestalt chars
Hello I have a few questions about gestalt characters (UA 72) in 3.5 DnD.
-First, are they game breaking and how much?
-Second, how hard is it to roleplay them?
-Third, what class combinations should be banned because of being unplayable (too strong or the characters seem schizophrenic)?
-Fourth, how hard is the balancing of the game for me as a DM?
-Fifth, which combos should I try and make unexploitable?
Any suggestions, comments or anything constructive is appreciated.
Thanks and regards!
-
2010-07-01, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Gestalt is very powerful.
But budging CR by 2 or so should be enough to cover (normally). And if your players suck at Optifu, it'll not matter much.
Roleplaying it... anything can be done really, just need to be creative.
The others... I'm not sure.
-
2010-07-01, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Seattle, WA
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
1. Gestalt characters are still limited in actions per round. Being able to bring doom in 7 fruity flavors doesn't help when you can only bring one to the table each round.
2. RP is mutable. Its not hard. As long as you don't have any gross alignment conflicts, I can easily justify any combo you could present.
3. Anything involving Factotum. Factotums can gain a LARGE number of extra standard action per round from 8th level up. This, combined with other class features (like casting) results in rediculous novas. Everything else is ok as long as you aren't breaking action economy over your knee like a dry twig.
4. Its not too much harder. Gestalt characters tend to be slightly more resiliant than non-gestalt characters. That means that they are typically better able to survive marathon days with 5-6+ encounters per day.
5. Really, besides the normal stuff of Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shepherd, Beholder Mage, Illithid Savant, Tainted ANYTHING, etc, the only thing I'll mention again is the Cunning Surge ability of Factotii. You don't want a wizard able to cast 5-6 of his highest level spell slots every battle in a single turn. To fix it, replace it with something else, or limit it to once per encounter or such. Thats about it.
-
2010-07-01, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- Finland
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Stronger than non-gestalt, comparable to other Gestalt? *shrug* I'm not sure what you're really asking here.
Depends on your character, but generally no harder than normal characters. They simply have a more versatile or powerful (if focused) ability set. That doesn't, in and of itself, place any RP constraints.
Gestalt by default is incredibly powerful; I'd look at things on a case-by-case basis. What I do suggest you ban though are characters with two very similar classes (e.g. straight Fighter//Barbarian) because they are, as a rule, quite underpowered.
You got to be willing to up the monster difficulty and use Gestalt NPCs. That said, no harder than normal really for most builds.
Eh, really, Factotum comboes can be a bit scary, but not that much. I'd rather encourage all players to make relatively powerful characters, than try to nerf all the reasonably powerful comboes. And honestly, with Factotum too, I'd only limit them to one extra Standard Action per round. That'd be just fine.Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-07-01 at 03:22 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
-
2010-07-01, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- R'lyeh
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
As far as Throwing challenges at the players, I recommend you don't just hurl higher cr stuff. Instead drop everything's CR by a couple points to keep the xp gains regular, and please please please make your intelligent npcs clever. AttackAttackAttack is not an option to most of them, and most of them are cunning and ruthless if their lives demand it. Make them such.
-
2010-07-01, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
I must mention though.
Factotum gets 10 IP at lvl 20. Cunning surge takes 3 to use. Without a few Font of Inspiration, you do not get to surge much.
-
2010-07-01, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
-
2010-07-01, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- London, UK.
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Wizard/Factotum 20 would be able to use four time stops in a turn. Now that is scary considering they would still have all the other wizard time-stop exploits left to use, even a normal factotum can be a gatling gun of spells if only a couple of FoI's are taken.
-
2010-07-01, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Well, they should be used in a group with fewer than 4 players. Game breaking? Yes and no. Creating encounters for a small group of gestalt characters is both easier and harder. Harder in that you must find or invent new ways of challenging them, and easier in that TPKs are less likely to occur.
-Second, how hard is it to roleplay them?
-Third, what class combinations should be banned because of being unplayable (too strong or the characters seem schizophrenic)?
-Fourth, how hard is the balancing of the game for me as a DM?
-Fifth, which combos should I try and make unexploitable?
-
2010-07-01, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
As others have mentioned, getting a bunch of extra actions is probably the biggest issue in gestalt. Factorium, Wizard/Psions abusing Schism, and other similar tricks will turn the character into a killing machine.
You also want to avoid dual progression classes, probably including ToB and ToM dual progression classes. Having someone who is effectively a 20th level Warblade, 20th level Cleric, and 20th level Wizard all a once is probably against what you're trying to design. Having an Arcane Heirophant//Psychic Theurge is also probably not what you want.
Other than that, it's basically the same game with more options for the players. You might want to check what everyone wants to play, so you don't have the Samurai//Monk trying to play alongside a Druid//Ardent player. It would not be unreasonable to ask (or restrict) players from only having a caster on one side of the gestalt.
-
2010-07-01, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
1. not if everyone is gestalt
2. no harder than it is to role play anything else
3. anything build you'd normally ban. only now it has two sides and you have to be sure they're arent getting into it more ways.
4. i've run a gestalt game and i found that with my group it was best to treat the party as about 1.5 times more powerfull for the CR of monsters. . . (gestalt level 7 should be able to handle CR 10) or to make geastalt monsters of appropriate level.
5. lol. . . all the normal ones. . . mostly involving wizard. . .RAMS > RAI > RAW
-
2010-07-02, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
I have 6 players, out of which two are competitive. I know my players and I know why I ask so many balance questions. One is a munchkin, sort of, he played a vow of poverty and wanted his 2000/6 gp share of the treasure, down to the last copper.
Well, they should be used in a group with fewer than 4 players. Game breaking? Yes and no. Creating encounters for a small group of gestalt characters is both easier and harder. Harder in that you must find or invent new ways of challenging them, and easier in that TPKs are less likely to occur.
Originally Posted by Snake-Aes
Originally Posted by ShadowsGrnEyes
Originally Posted by 2xMachina
Thanks, any more bits of wisdom, int or cha will be appreciated...
Regards!
-
2010-07-02, 04:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Location
- Ireland
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Some classes are more powerful in gestalt than in normal play. The monk, for instance, gets a ton of passive abilities (good saves, AC bonus, etc.) but can't really "do anything". A cleric//druid would only be able to cast spells from one of his classes per round, but a monk//druid can cast druid spells while benefiting from his monk abilities.
And then, as mentioned, there's the factotum, who can give himself extra actions. Normally this means double what a factotum can do, but in gestalt it can mean double whatever your other class can do.
EDIT: One of the biggest things to note with gestalt characters is that they have better endurance. A wizard//fighter who runs out of spells is still a fighter, and can keep going for a while on his martial abilities.
VoP characters are still supposed to get a share of treasure, they just have to donate it to charity. It's to stop the other PCs from getting too much wealth. btw, you can solve some of the balance issues if you notice that only the first bonus feat is explicitly called out as exalted, and skim sourcebooks for the best feats to use in all those extra slots.Last edited by Prime32; 2010-07-02 at 04:18 AM.
-
2010-07-02, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
On the point of overpowered combos, just ban the big six: Tainted Scholar, Beholder Mage, DweomerKeeper, Planar Shepard, and Illithid Savant.
People will tell you that Factotum can be better than Planar Shepard (I really have heard this before) in Gestalt. This is a fallacy. Not that Factotum doesn't have merit (it has merit en mass), but Planar Shepard requires far less personal feat investment, especially in Gestalt, and frankly if with ten rounds per turn your players can't win they're doing it wrong.
For most other combos try to be somewhat flexible. Gestalt is a whole new beast when it comes to power, especially since with careful building it becomes trivial to cover up multiple if not all of the weaknesses of the classes that comprise your build.
Prime32 made a good example:
Though for, a more optimized approach I personally might run Wizard//Duskblade but that's another matter. The idea is there, in that one side has the combat abilities the other does not.
Another important thing is to keep an eye on is the Tier 1 classes since early qualification becomes trivial in Gestalt.
Example:
Wizard 20//Duskblade 20: is strong but not decimating compared to what the Wizard normally is capable of.
Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spell Dancer 1/Legacy Champion (Abjurant Champion) 9//Duskblade 20: could crush almost any published monster you throw at it.Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-07-02 at 04:54 AM.
Doc Roc: We're going to eat ourselves.
-
2010-07-02, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
- Location
- Not Here
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
You have to run a different campaign style. More tricks, more traps, higher CR monsters for less XP, more marathon battles (a good rule of thumb from my gestalt experience is that villains aren't nice and aren't going to let your PCs stop every 4 battles) Your villains are going to be gestalt too, exploit this.
-Second, how hard is it to roleplay them?
-Third, what class combinations should be banned because of being unplayable (too strong or the characters seem schizophrenic)?
-Fourth, how hard is the balancing of the game for me as a DM?
-Fifth, which combos should I try and make unexploitable?Last edited by Ajadea; 2010-07-02 at 05:01 AM.
-
2010-07-02, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
- It's no more gamebreaking then any other rule. As long as everyone is gestalt, there really is no problem. Balance should be relative to players rather then the game world. The DM can up the monsters anytime he wants if he feels they're not delivering enough of a challenge.
- About as hard as a normal character. Actually less, because gestalt allows you to more quickly and effectively build your character the way you invisioned him.
- I don't know what you mean by schizophrenic. But I guess the golden rule would be don't be a douche. Warlock+Hexblade build=Just fine. They both may synergize thanks to the same key stat, but hardly threatening. CoDzilla=No. x10nos... I'd prefer to let the other players decide if they think their comrade is balanced. Because it's going to be them getting outshined. So if they're okay with that, then let CoDzilla attack Japan...
- Not that hard. It's basically like whatever level they are, just times it by a half. They got more abilities, better stats, and lots more oppurtunities to abuse. But they're still limited by rules and level...
- Well, like I said. The obvious... CodZilla, probably something like warblade+psion. Pretty much consult the tier class system. And try to maintain some balance between the total tiers...
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0
I don't know why the tier system is ranked in "less means more" like an mtv music countdown. I'd rank them up based off their power. CoDzilla is a 12, and warlock+hexblade is a 6. I think a commoner should actually be ranked as a 0. As there is absolutely no incentive whatsoever to play one compared to any other class. (Sept maybe for that feat in dragon magizine where you can summon countless sheep)
You should probably set a goal level. Like 8. 8 seems good for a balanced gestalt campaign as a tier 3 campaign would be good for single class.
Also, I should probably note to ignore alignment restrictions. Just use it for the purpose of magic items, damage, etc. But don't stop someone from being a paladin+druid if he can justify it. Don't be that guy...Last edited by Corporate M; 2010-07-02 at 05:05 AM.
-
2010-07-02, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- R'lyeh
- Gender
-
2010-07-02, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Freljord
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
I would ban combinations of two full spellcasting classes unless they are both spontaneous (Beguiler/Dread Necromancer isn't as bad as Druid/Cleric, durr). A prepared full caster should have a non-caster on the other side.
Of course, also ban dual-progression PrCs as the Gestalt rules heavily advise.
Other than that right now I can't think of other stuff. Gestalt is a blast to play though and gives characters a little extra oomph. I played in a Gestalt game where players could have an LA of up to +6 for free and it got real strange at first, but it was always fun. Those characters currently feature in our current campaign as epic-level NPCs.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
-
2010-07-02, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
We don't know unless you tell us. If you're going to ask questions about how to run your game, it helps if you actually tell us a bit about your players and their respective play styles. Or the level of the game, or the campaign's focus. The devil is in the details, and all that.
One is a munchkin, sort of, he played a vow of poverty and wanted his 2000/6 gp share of the treasure, down to the last copper.
How about 6 players, as said?
-
2010-07-02, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Vow of poverty allows player not to take and donate 2000/6=333gp 3sp and 3cp. He doesn't have to take it up to the last copper, he can take 300-330gp. He is a VoP monk not a loan shark.
Originally Posted by Chrono22
Six players, two PP, the rest don't mind it. We try to have a lot of RP. The point of the game isn't H&S but to have fun, and laugh ourselves to coma. I rarely give them more than three encounters per session (which lasts 8-12 hours). And for what is worth we play by the book, several books...
I can't say anything about the plot; one or more of my players are regular readers here...
Originally Posted by Snake-Aes
My party is afraid of burning woods and chopping down trees, they think since I play druids I will punish them.Last edited by Kaww; 2010-07-02 at 05:59 AM.
-
2010-07-02, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Vow of poverty allows player not to take and donate 2000/6=333gp 3sp and 3cp. He doesn't have to take it up to the last copper, he can take 300-330gp. He is a VoP monk not a loan shark.
Originally Posted by BoED
-
2010-07-02, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Are you trying to say that a vow of poverty char should get a 1/6 of every magic item that is not sold? Or that he should ask for every copper from the char that uses the item?
I DM so that the chars that get the cash and items (that VoP chars don't) are expected from VoP chars to give an adequate amount of cash to charity. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but no more than 5%. If I made them roll appraise vs. party rogue that would be just sad. How else are they expected to know what sums are they dealing with?
-
2010-07-02, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- R'lyeh
- Gender
-
2010-07-02, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Seattle, WA
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
The best way to do this is if there are any items that the party doesn't want, give them to the VoP character to donate to the church. That allows you most often to use the full market value of an item when dividing out shares instead of the half value from liquidating it.
For example, say the party of 4 (one with VoP) found a +1 Longsword and 18000g in a stash. The 3 party members who can use items already have +2 Longswords, and nobody wants the backup. NORMALLY, you'd sell it for half, take the 19000g and divide by 4 (4750g EA). If you give the sword to the ascetic, he donates it at full value to his church to help arm their militia which protects small farming villiages and you divide up 20000g between 4 players, each player gets 5000g (except the ascetic, who gets 3000g and the sword and promptly donates all of it).
Kinda a creative method of using your VoP character to "vendor" items at full price for a net gain to the party!
-
2010-07-02, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
That is the most brilliant use of VoP that I have ever heard. You have been awarded 1 internet, use it wisely.
Onto the original topic, I must say the advice so far is pretty good. Just 1 thing.
Be very careful allowing Incarnum. If you are not going to use it that is fine, but if you allow it, Incarnates and Totemists tend to abuse the inherent limiting factor of Gestalt, action economy. Incarnum abilities only use up you swift action, most soulmelds enhance instead of utilize your standard and move actions. A totemist//barbarian is a strong combination of utter ruination (and the only way to have an illiterate gestalt character in official material). And Incarnate//Fighters aren't bad either. Binders (ToM) have some issues, but nowhere near the power that is Incarnum+Full BAB classes.
Incarnum users effectively have all day buff spells to make up for their lower hit die and bab, now put those abilities on a big HD and full bab, and you get a monster. Also most Incarnum abilities are based on CON (especially for totemists). Fighters and Barbarians love CON. The incarnum//meleer combos are highly synergistic, and can sometimes make batwizards cry (which might not be considered a bad thing).Last edited by Darth Stabber; 2010-07-02 at 09:57 PM.
My homebrew
Official spokesman of the totemist class for gestalt (and proud supporter of parenthetical asides (especially nested ones)). Author of a gestalt handbookSpoiler
-
2010-07-03, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
They DO DONATE, the ascetic ninja (with a VERY good fluff) did a slight of hand while searching a vampire treasure chest and managed to take a diamond ~10k gp and donated it to the needy without party knowing. Rogue was p***ed (OOG) because of it and said: "BUT HE WON'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT!". That was the reward for a very difficult encounter btw...
The way I use it non VoP people sometimes donate some cash of their own too.
Originally Posted by Darth Stabber
Sorry, but what is Incarnum?
Originally Posted by Book of Exalted Deeds
Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of
poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members
get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority
of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale
thereof ) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping
rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors)
or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its
work among the poor). While taking upon herself the burden of
poverty voluntarily, an ascetic recognizes that many people do
not have the freedom to choose poverty, but instead have it
forced upon them, and seeks to better those unfortunates as
much as possible.
Regards!
-
2010-07-03, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Wait, what? Your groups' Ninja steals from his party to donate?
Incarnum is something introduced in Magic of Incarnum. It's mostly a special Magic Item system for some classes/people with feats. (You shape soulmelds, which can replace magic items when bound)
-
2010-07-03, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
It wasn't that much of a steal... It was more in the lines of - No one asks, no one gets the munchies...
Made me laugh silly, since OOG everyone asked about the cash and demanded spot checks. In game - no one asked a thing about the search result and the puppy just stood there wagging it's tail with nothing found (windows only)...
Regards!
-
2010-07-03, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: DnD Gestalt chars
Remember this rule:
Originally Posted by srd
-
2010-07-04, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
- Location
- Harmondale
- Gender