What is the best non-warrior class?

[Flynn Cass]

Bards...hands down nothing trumps the awesomeness that are bards.

[herrhauptmann]

Cleric. It's a full caster.
What is the best warrior class? Cleric. With the right buffs, he's a better fighter than the fighter, even before you factor in full casting.

[taltamir]

the best no-warrior?
warrior is an NPC class, like a fighter, only weaker.

So basically you are asking, what is the best class, period.

That would be wizard.

read the links in this post:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...12&postcount=2

[Flynn Cass]

Clerics are cool, but bards can almost literally do everything, the only thing i can think of that they can't really do is the roguish stuff like opening locks and disabling devices

[Raistlin1040]

Best Non-Warrior Class? Any, probably, except Commoner.

If you mean non Melee class, Wizard or Druid.

[Flynn Cass]

Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

[taltamir]

Clerics are cool, but bards can almost literally do everything, the only thing i can think of that they can't really do is the roguish stuff like opening locks and disabling devices

clerics are better in every way shape and form than bards.
Bards are cool, they are a very respectively tier 3 character. a whole 2 tiers above fighter and 3 tiers above warrior. But they are still well below tier 1 classes.

Tier 1: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer.

Tier 2: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (Without access to Summon Monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Divine Mind (before Mind's Eye updates)

Also

Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

magic missile is one of the wizard's weakest spells. a properly played wizard will never cast it. Most can't because they ban evocation. Read some charOp

[Tanuki Tales]

Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

Check the link given unless you're just Bard Trolling.

[Raistlin1040]

Um. Wish? Destroy the Multiverse spell? Time Stop? Polymorph? Polymorph Any Object? The Power Word spells? Gate? All of that ontop of their Mailman Blaster Spells that scale as they level up?

Believe me, I'm not fan of Wizards, or even Arcane Casters in general, but it's hard to overrate possibly the best core class, and among the best base classes.

[aivanther]

Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

Try reading what some of those cool spells can do. Making reality your b**** pretty much means they CAN do whatever all the other classes can do.

[taltamir]

look OP, its fine to have opinions, and its fine to be new to things. I once was as blissfully unaware of the intricacies of 3.5.

Luckily there are websites, mostly on brillian gameologists, where people who are aware explain it all, in detail.

I really suggest you follow the links I posted originally, here I will give them out again:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=5198.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=5256.0

[Raistlin1040]

And look, as an alternative, I generally ignore the tier system. There is Nearly Unplayable (NPC classes other than Adept, CW Samurai, Monk) and Playable (Everything else). I'd even argue that a well-thought out Bard is Tier 2 (With DFI and Sublime Chord), so a cut above a lot of those "Tier 3" classes. But the Wizard is just absurd amounts of power, especially once you get enough hit points to survive a hit or two.

[Winter87]

I wish that best class discussions didn't always come down to who can break the game best. This is called a role playing game after all and steamrolling everything gets boring.

[taltamir]

I wish that best class disscusions didn't always come down to who can break the game best. This is called a role playing game after all and steamrolling everything gets boring.

the tier 1 classes don't NEED to break the game to be flat out better.
Do away with every one of the game breaking mechanics, and they are still better.

[Flynn Cass]

I agree and thats why i like bards they are very versatile and can participate at least basically in almost every aspect of the game

[Raistlin1040]

Well, if it's about Role Playing, the best classes are Paladin, Bard, Druid, and Sorcerer. Those are my favorite classes to play from a backstory-writing and Role Playing standpoint.

[Winter87]

the tier 1 classes don't NEED to break the game to be flat out better.
Do away with every one of the game breaking mechanics, and they are still better.

Thus completly missing my point. I will agree that 3.5 is unbalanced though.

[taltamir]

I agree and thats why i like bards they are very versatile and can participate at least basically in almost every aspect of the game

I quoteth what the tier system has to say a about a bard's tier.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

So yes, you seem to have gotten the bard pegged.

Thus completly missing my point. I will agree that 3.5 is unbalanced though.

um, as I read it your point was "people only say wizards are better because they can break the game".
If not, then what was your point?

[Flynn Cass]

Balance really comes down to whether or not the players want to have a balanced game

[taltamir]

Balance really comes down to whether or not the players want to have a balanced game

Not really. as long as you play with multiple people, who have a different grasp of char op, and who are optimizing for different power levels (ex: I intentionally deoptimize certain classes to not outshine the party) then you will have imbalance... in other words, as long as you are not playing by yourself, but playing with other human beings, then you will have imbalance in an inherently unbalanced game like DnD 3.5

[Flynn Cass]

[QUOTE=taltamir;8830910]I quoteth what the tier system has to say a about a bard's tier./quote]


Tiers is a really lame way to break down the game and write off every class you see as pointless. Everything plays an essential role and you cannot deny the value of any aspect of the game

[herrhauptmann]

Clerics are cool, but bards can almost literally do everything, the only thing i can think of that they can't really do is the roguish stuff like opening locks and disabling devices

If you like a bard because it's flavorful and fun to play in your group, that's fine. But you gotta be willing to actually read the links people give you.
"Best" here generally means 'most powerful or broken'. That's generally wizard, cleric or druid.
If you really like the 'do anything' of a bard, try a factotum.

[taltamir]

I quoteth what the tier system has to say a about a bard's tier.


Tiers is a really lame way to break down the game and write off every class you see as pointless. Everything plays an essential role and you cannot deny the value of any aspect of the game

tiers does not write classes as pointless, it extremely accurately analyzes their strengths and weeknesses, and allows you to play more fairly by ensuring each person plays a character from the same or near tiers. Actually, the tier system flat out recommends that most people play tier 3, because tier 2 and 1 are too ridiculously overpowered.

From the way you speak, you have clearly not read it, and you continue to refuse to read it while spouting off defamation about it which are clearly wrong. Until you actually bother reading what you are bashing we have nothing more to say to each other.

[Optimystik]

"Best" for a class in D&D actually means "can overcome the widest variety of obstacles."

Come up with a scenario, any scenario - a straight Wizard can overcome it.

A straight Bard will be stymied at some point, and perhaps several points.

As you add splat books, the Bard's chances of being effective improve - but so do the Wizard's. The Bard can narrow the gap but never close it.

[Raistlin1040]

I agree and thats why i like bards they are very versatile and can participate at least basically in almost every aspect of the game

A good character should be able to do that. It's not the Bard class, it's anyone who is good at making a well-rounded character. Wizard can open locked doors with Knock, contribute to stealth missions with Invisibility, do well in combat with Fireball and Lightning Bolt, etc. The four main casters in Core (Sorcerer a bit less than others) CAN do anything, especially when you bring in books like the Spell Compendium.

Are you implying players don't want to be balanced? Do the players of the Two-Weapon Fighter Ranger and the Tank Paladin WANT to suck? Should we punish them for not being the best? Of course not. If someone wants to play their character, it's up to the DM to find better abilities for them, make some houserules, to try and even the game a little bit. But just looking at the abse PHB abilities, Wizards and Clerics don't NEED those boosts of DM fiat.

[Draz74]

Wizards ... other than some cool spells they cant do jack.

Yes, and other than the parts with water, Earth's surface is far too dry to sustain life. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!

[herrhauptmann]

Tiers is a really lame way to break down the game and write off every class you see as pointless. Everything plays an essential role and you cannot deny the value of any aspect of the game

There are people here who are excellent at char op, yet love to play low tier classes, say the fighter.

Now, are you going to actually have a conversation with us, or ignore any opinion we make that runs counter to your own.

edit:

Yes, and other than the parts with water, Earth's surface is far too dry to sustain life. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!

Bwahahaha....
I'm gonna leave this thing until the morning. Getting ninja'd way too fast, and I'd have better luck talking to wall than flynn here.

second edit: fixed a bad quote.

[Flynn Cass]

You are all right i am very sorry for my lack of DnD culture, i will attempt to read up on the surrounding culture, before i again attempt to venture into the realms containing such as you. Once again i apologize for my unserious attitude in such a 'serious' situation. I am serious about most of this, mainly the un studied part

[taltamir]

@herrhauptmann: he posted a broken quote code, as a resulting, quoting it makes it seem as if I said what he said. could you correct your post to make it have the right quotes?

@Flynn Cass: please add [/quote] at the end of what I said. the text between it and the [quote=taltamir] part will then show up as a proper quote, and not cause further misattributions.

[mikej]

Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

wait, wait!. I cast magic missile at the darkness

Aside from the following Polymorph, Gate, Time Stop, Forcecage, Solid Fog, Enervation, Wish, Shapechange, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Telekinesis, Disintegrate, Astral Projection, Haste, Polymorph Any Object, Stinking Cloud, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhuastion. Just to name a few "Core" spells.

Not taking in account the casting power. Druids are pretty good melee "non-warrior" class. Heck, you get one as a Cohort at 1st level.