StarCraft 2, Thread 2: Hell, it's about time

[Douglas]

Except that the only thing the other two episodes introduce are their single player campaigns. As a contrast, look at Brood War - a full ~30 mission single player campaign AND new units for every race. Priced as an expansion, while it's looking like episodes 2 and 3 of SC2 are going to be full-price games.

8) Will they be priced as expansions?

They'll be priced appropriately to the content. Right now, the plans are to do something along the lines of a full single player campaign and some additional features to the multi-player side. It'll obviously use the same engine; so that, to me, is an expansion price point. If we decided to put in 3 new races and a bunch of new technology and features, maybe that would be a stand-alone product. But right now, we're looking at much more of an expansion-like feature set.

Emphasis added.

[Killer Angel]

29 singleplayer missions, full multiplayer and an extensive editor toolset don't sound like a "third of a game" to me. Just saying.

It is a third of the game. Only, it's the game that is huge: in the end we'll have almost 90 missions in single player mode.

[Innis Cabal]

8) Will they be priced as expansions?

They'll be priced appropriately to the content. Right now, the plans are to do something along the lines of a full single player campaign and some additional features to the multi-player side. It'll obviously use the same engine; so that, to me, is an expansion price point. If we decided to put in 3 new races and a bunch of new technology and features, maybe that would be a stand-alone product. But right now, we're looking at much more of an expansion-like feature set.

Emphasis added.

And what is "Expansion" price? Judging from Blizzard it's still around 40 bucks. So instead of 180 bucks, it'll be 140. Sorry, still a little to grabby for my tastes. I'm not paying 80 bucks for what should have come with the first game.

[Myatar_Panwar]

And what is "Expansion" price? Judging from Blizzard it's still around 40 bucks. So instead of 180 bucks, it'll be 140. Sorry, still a little to grabby for my tastes. I'm not paying 80 bucks for what should have come with the first game.

Are you people even reading this thread?

What world are we living in where 20 hours of game play isn't worth $40? This is just insanity that people would be so against this.

[AgentPaper]

on that note, agent paper, how's that turn based SC2 coming along, I know several people who want to try it.

Well, I took a look at the editor, but it seems to be exactly the same as the one we had in the beta. Notably, there's still no way to affect terrain with the editor (other than using special terrain-deforming units, which are very cumbersome and not especially practical), which is one of the main things I was waiting for. Hopefully there'll be a patch soon with a more fully-fleshed out editor. I haven't tested it, but I assume that the controls over building construction are still buggy and unreliable, since nothing else has really changed.

I also made the mistake of deleting my SC2 beta folder without first moving my map out of it, so I've had to re-make all the triggers to get back to where I was. If there's still no fixes for the terrain and construction issues, then I'll just have to work around those once I finish the other stuff.

[Dienekes]

And what is "Expansion" price? Judging from Blizzard it's still around 40 bucks. So instead of 180 bucks, it'll be 140. Sorry, still a little to grabby for my tastes. I'm not paying 80 bucks for what should have come with the first game.

Isn't that true for all trilogy games though (or any game with a multi-game storyline)?

Take Mass Effect for example. Is it 3 distinct games that are fun on their own tell a great story and each worth $60? Or is it 1 story of a game worth $180?

SCII has an entire storyline, character development, entertaining missions and a lot of detail and options, just in campaign mode. It makes sense with the amount of detail that it can be viewed as it's own individual game. The other two races, are unnecessary for the story being told.

Now that's not to say I'm exactly happy, I love me some Protoss, but it works.

[Tengu_temp]

And the final issue for me is, Warcraft 3 was a dissapointment stacked next to WC 1 and 2. Sure, great story. But...it seems the trend of awesome sequels has ended at Blizzard. So, not going to drop a ton of money down on SC2 untill I can get it way cheaper then the 60 bucks they're asking me to shell out.

Seriously? Nostalgia filter aside, Warcraft 3 is better in almost every aspect than Warcraft 2, and in every aspect than Warcraft 1. Similarily, I think that Starcraft 2 is better in everything than Starcraft 1, except for the unreasonable bullcrap restrictions (only one account per game, no LAN, region lock? Come on!).

[Zen Monkey]

This is one of those games that has a very divided base of players, much like World of Warcraft. Some players only do pve, some love the pvp, some are only alliance or only horde. Similarly, some Starcraft fans play only the single-player, some only play online. Some are huge fans of one race and uninterested in others. If you're a big fan of, say, a single-player zerg campaign (with story, not just maps) then this just isn't the game for you, at least not yet. If you like the terrans and/or like multiplayer, then this appears to be a good source of entertainment for you. As someone has already said, the idea of a discounted battle chest package might be a better purchase once the game is no longer new and shiny. The gears at Blizzard move slowly though, and Diablo and more World of Warcraft are already ahead of these in line. With a game engine already in place and units for the other races already designed, it would seem that the only missing pieces are story, maps, and maybe cut scenes.

[Innis Cabal]

Take Mass Effect for example. Is it 3 distinct games that are fun on their own tell a great story and each worth $60? Or is it 1 story of a game worth $180?

It's not even close to the same thing. Mass Effect is marketed as three seperate game's with an over arching story. The game's they'll be making as "Expansions" are still SC2. And again, if they'd bundled it all together and charged a little more then 60 bucks, I'd be more inclind to buy the game. But the "But it's three full games but expansions!" argument does nothing to sway me. When I first heard about this decision I had already made up my mind that I wasn't going to let them grab more of my money for something they've had a decade and then some to work on.

The long and short of it, I feel sorta jipped. Even if the story is great, I don't want to wait. I've already done enough of that since Brood War. It's not that they're doing what a business should do to make money (Again, can't fault them for the decision) I just think it's made a rift between them and their die hard consumer base. Something Blizzard used to not have before WoW came out.

Seriously? Nostalgia filter aside, Warcraft 3 is better in almost every aspect than Warcraft 2, and in every aspect than Warcraft 1.

I think that's a bit of opinion, but I still play WC2 over WC3. Not that the game was bad. But the lowering of the unit count and the hero's took away the feel of the pervious games, for me at least.

Similarily, I think that Starcraft 2 is better in everything than Starcraft 1, except for the unreasonable bullcrap restrictions (only one account per game, no LAN, region lock? Come on!).

I also still play SC1, though I can't say it's better then 2 since I haven't played it. Though the region lock (something I have to suffer with in WoW) and the loss of LAN games (Which...really...why did they think that was a good idea) are two other things keeping me from even shelling out what they're asking for the first game.

[Protecar]

Failed my spot check in finding that other thread.

On topic: I can understand where some people are coming from, but a lot of my complaint comes to the point that I've waited since the beginning to see this story be told. It's been a decade plus and I'm a pretty story-oriented guy. The fact that after all that waiting, I still don't get to see this story told puts me down a bit.

I'll admit, I've invested a solid amount of time into this game already--I'm about to the 6th scenario or so and I'm enjoying it. But I know that at the end of the road, I'm not going to have the end of the story.

Is it a good game? Of course. Do I wish Blizzard had more to show after a decade? You better believe it. After being a staunch supporter for this long, I really find the idea of waiting some unknown amount of time/years more for the "full" fix of what I've imagined Blizzard would be delivering leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[Dr.Epic]

Half my friends play the game. Is it worth getting?

[Protecar]

Half my friends play the game. Is it worth getting?

If you like RTS's and want to play with your pals, go for it. All the fan-pain I feel from the breaking up of the game doesn't stop me from recommending it. It's a game as good as I remember and has a nice campaign mode(as far as I've gotten into it, anyways).

[Zen Monkey]

Half my friends play the game. Is it worth getting?

From what's been said here, it sounds like the answer depends on what you want to get out of the game. It appears that Blizzard took the original game and really cranked up some aspects, while neglecting others.

[Tengu_temp]

Half my friends play the game. Is it worth getting?

I will let Angry Joe speak for me. I agree with his views on this game.

[Cynan Machae]

Thanks. A few questions-

1. You mention teching in too many directions. Assuming that it's not one of the situations that happened a couple of times where I suddenly and unexpectedly hear "you must construct additional pylons!", and am struggling to come up with something to do with my resources while the pylons finish (I'm aware that's something that I really need to fix- I'm getting better about that than I used to be, but it's still hard to keep track of in the chaos), how many ways should I go per main base/expo, and how many unit producing structures should I be aiming to support per base/expo?

2. About practicing build orders vs. an AI, I do, but the same mistakes don't get made nearly as much, since I'm not simultaneously trying to chase a probe out of my base, or at least not lose track of it (I've learned that if I lose track of it, I'm likely to find cannons in one corner of my base...), right as I'm trying to run my probe in circles around my opponents base. Any tips on how to handle this without screwing my build?

EDIT- ok, a third question:

In the build order you posted, the first offensive unit comes out rather late. Doesn't that spell instant death if my opponent sends so much as one Zealot/Marine/'Ling to say hello? Even if I've got a probe over in his base, I won't know about it until it's killed my probe (and, if he's clever, he may even have it skip killing my probe, in which case it could easily go unnoticed).

1. Yea, considering you fix the psi block problem (which eally shouldn't happen early game, nd usually you are better of with additionnal gateways than additional tech), out of one base you can go up to 4 gateways (kinda all-in tho), 3 gateway robo/stargate, or even 2 gateway +robo teching to colossi or eching to DT/HT. With addional bases you can just use those numbers and double it. But those are numbers if your macro isn't slipping, especially on two+ bases, you might want more than that.

2. Yea, this happens a lot, real games situation aren't the same. If you want to practice in a situation kinda similar or just in which you are stressed to do a lot more things, try the multitask trainer I posted earlier (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=124983).

3. Well, as I pointed in my post this BO is vs Terran. Vs Zerg and sometimes Protoss you want to get a zealot first. If a Terran sends an early marine, your stalker with get out just a bit late yea, but 1 marine can't do much really. 2-3 probes can deal with it/delay it long enough. If you scout double rax/proxy rax you can always add a zealot in time anyway.

[Inhuman Bot]

Well, I took a look at the editor, but it seems to be exactly the same as the one we had in the beta.

This. It's a little worrying.

[Draconi Redfir]

So just wondering here, is there only one campaign? or are there three like brood war and the original? i just beat (what i think is) the Terrin campaign, and it said to play in the "next chapter of the starcraft 2 trilogy" can anyone tell me how to get to the next campaign, if they so exist?

[Forbiddenwar]

So just wondering here, is there only one campaign? or are there three like brood war and the original? i just beat (what i think is) the Terrin campaign, and it said to play in the "next chapter of the starcraft 2 trilogy" can anyone tell me how to get to the next campaign, if they so exist?

wow, um thought everyone knew
The next campaign will come out in an expansion in about a year, and it will be zerg (Heart of the Swarm). They couldn't fit all the content in 1 game. Just like the original there are 3 campaigns, but unlike the original there is more than 3 times the content in each campaign. So they are releasing it as a trilogy. The last is in an expansion called called legacy of the void and is protoss.

[mangosta71]

Wings of Liberty is just the terran campaign. The zerg campaign will be released at some point in the distant future. And the protoss campaign some time even further away.

[tribble]

I'm on what I'm guessing is the final mission, with the artifact you need to defend. I must say I'm disappointed with the campaign thus far. It's all MICRO MICRO MICRO DO ALL THIS MICRO without any need to macromanage and actually develop skills that are useful in multiplayer games, such as expanding. there isn't time or need to do it, on most of the maps it's just mass-produce the unit you just got and throw it at the enemy. even the final mission is just, "lol, are you fast enough to keep your buildings producing units while dashing out to burn worms and rebuilding bunkers for"... what? thirty minutes? an hour? bleh.
I think the missions in the original starcraft were just way better done, they actually sort of prepared you to play multiplayer, a little.

[Cynan Machae]

Blizzard said that the campaign would in no way prepare you fro multiplayer, that challenges would be a bridge begween that, so yea. And myself by playing on Brutal I found that it wasn't about micro but macormacromacro in order to keep up with their imba unit production <<

[Draconi Redfir]

ahh, thanks for clearing that up.


i don’t see what the problem is, in starcraft 1 you were really limited to one game style: defend this base, then kill enemy base. You win"

in SC2 however, you get all sorts of different things, "escape rising lava" "use this one guy to break into a prison" "destroy an entire frickin base with one stealthed unit" "blow up the enemy base" "defend your base from constant zombie attacks during the night" "escape the fire storm" "escort the SCV while it harvests a rare gas" ETC.

[Eldariel]

Blizzard said that the campaign would in no way prepare you fro multiplayer, that challenges would be a bridge begween that, so yea. And myself by playing on Brutal I found that it wasn't about micro but macormacromacro in order to keep up with their imba unit production <<

I gain a lot of edge with sharp micro; particularly medics and scvs tend to have vastly extended lifespans if you micro 'em a bit, and tank push is about 1000 times more efficient when performed correctly, with scanner support.

Overall, I find you don't need that good micro for Brutal (the computer is still just a computer, after all), but it certainly helps, especially if you try and accomplish all the feats of strength (efficiently fighting Toss with Storm before you get Tanks is very micro intensive, for example).

[Cynan Machae]

I'm gonna start streaming some of my games for SC2 like I did for SC1, so ti should be up for the next few hours if anyone is interested (or just check on TL if the stream is live for any other time).

http://www.livestream.com/cynanmachae

Edit:

I gain a lot of edge with sharp micro; particularly medics and scvs tend to have vastly extended lifespans if you micro 'em a bit, and tank push is about 1000 times more efficient when performed correctly, with scanner support.

Overall, I find you don't need that good micro for Brutal (the computer is still just a computer, after all), but it certainly helps, especially if you try and accomplish all the feats of strength (efficiently fighting Toss with Storm before you get Tanks is very micro intensive, for example).

Yea, I'm still using micro, I just mean i was focusing more in macro than micro on Brutal

[RationalGoblin]

29 singleplayer missions, full multiplayer and an extensive editor toolset don't sound like a "third of a game" to me. Just saying.

Agreed. I don't like the price tag, but when it finally goes down to a reasonable price (20 per part of the game sounds fine), I'll be buying it.

Starcraft 2 is supposed to be Blizzard's magnum opus of the decade, and they have a pretty good track record so far, so I'd say that it's worth splitting the campaign into thirds.

[Kaez]

From reading the Press release about a yer or two ago, they intended to split the game up into 3 different campaigns as they felt it wasn't a good enough to have it split up 30 missions into three races. Terran first, Zerg second, Protoss Last. roughly 30 missions each.

They also stated (maybe not in the press release) that with each expansion they intended to throw in new units for the multi-player for each game. I assume Wings of Liberty didn't include a bunch of new units aside for the ones they made to change exisiting units, but I could be wrong. I only played the beta for a bit, wasn't enjoying the multi, so I stopped.

Honestly, I'd say your getting your bang for your buck, whether or not you agree with Blizzards methods. I'm a story driven gamer, so 30 missions a peice sounds like it would be pretty sweet.

[Guancyto]

So, a random question I had from replaying the campaign. The Internet is surprisingly silent on the point and even IMDB doesn't seem to have anything.

Is Scary Ghost Lady (you know the one) voiced by Grey DeLisle? (Azula, Viconia, Mandy, Nassana, etc.)

[AslanCross]

So yeah, Goliaths were pretty damn key in the original.

Interesting. I never really did play much multiplayer Starcraft back in the day. My friends just became too good too fast (skipping school to play and all). By the time I felt like I was any good against them, they'd moved on to CounterStrike and Diablo II.

So, a random question I had from replaying the campaign. The Internet is surprisingly silent on the point and even IMDB doesn't seem to have anything.

Is Scary Ghost Lady (you know the one) voiced by Grey DeLisle? (Azula, Viconia, Mandy, Nassana, etc.)

Kerrigan's voiced by Tricia Helfer in SC2.

[pita]

This is not a third of a game at all. At worst, it's a game where you're only allowed to play one side of the conflict, in the single player missions. And that's not that horrible. But this game is in almost every way superior to Starcraft (Note that I say almost. I really miss Lurkers, and medivacs aren't anywhere near as great as Medics, and Hellions are bullpoo compared to firebats. And the loss of Dark Archons is an affront I do not take easily), and I love it bunches. The plot isn't 1/3rd of a plot, it's 4 plots. There's the Dominion takedown (Though I kinda hate Horner, it's not out of any specific reason), there's Gabriel Tosh's manipulating you to free his friends from jail (though I agreed to rescue them when I found out, because Spectres are freakin awesome, and who uses Snipe anyway, and Tosh's mission is the single most fun mission in the campaign), there's the Zerg invasion aspect of Ariel Hanson's missions, and there's the main plot, which is the whole Valerian/Tychus/Char thing.

Except that the only thing the other two episodes introduce are their single player campaigns. As a contrast, look at Brood War - a full ~30 mission single player campaign AND new units for every race. Priced as an expansion, while it's looking like episodes 2 and 3 of SC2 are going to be full-price games.

As stated before, there will be new units for every race as well as a 30 mission campaign in both Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void.


My problems: The price tag. The fact that the box I got is in frickin Hebrew. My computer not really being good enough to run the game well. My best friend mooching off me a ton. The lack of units I mentioned above. The survival missions (The first one is ridiculously boring and easy, the other two ridiculously hard). The fact that to get a Spectre portrait like I want, I have to win 25 League games, while I can't even beat one. The dialogue is just as contrived as it was in SC. The plot being inconsistent at times, what with there being four different plot-lines. (After finishing Horner's missions, it seemed Vermillion would hate the Confederacy, but then I did more Tosh missions and he continued loving the Confederacy, then after I finished the Tychus missions he went crazy) There should have also been more moral choices. If I agree with the Protoss and wipe out the civilians, they were all infected, as was Hanson, and if I agree with Hanson and destroy the mothership, she leaves to a brighter future with the colonists. If I agree with Nova, Tosh is a treacherous psychopath who tries murdering me and ends up beating up Tychus rather badly, and if I agree with Tosh, Nova's a liar and he's completely loyal to me, even giving me advice in the Zeratul missions. The only one where I chose wrong was when Warfield and Tychus each gave me a different strategy to use, and I chose Tychus's because I heard his mission was awesome. What was I thinking? I'm not afraid of Nydus Worms, and Brood Lords are terrifying.
Oh, yeah, the semi-romance between Hanson and Raynor pissed me off. As did nobody ever confronting Tychus before his betrayal even though it was really really frickin obvious. Really obvious. In a frickin way.
I still hate Vultures as much as I did in the original Starcraft. Boy am I glad they removed those. Useless pieces of ****, taunting me by being the only Factory units you can buy using only minerals. Hellions are nearly as bad, except they're actually kinda useful against Zerglings, the bane of my totally awesome Thors.
Oh, the good part of this game: Thors, Reapers, and Collossi are the most awesome things ever imagined by man. The new Queens are great. Brood Lords are like Guardians but awesomer. Did I mention Reapers? I friggin love Reapers. Stalkers and Immortals are each like Dragoons, except they're both much cooler. Motherships are like Arbiters except they make you say "oh poo oh poo oh poo." The mission designs in this game are better than anything in old Starcraft. They made an escort mission fun. They made two completely different escort missions fun, then to switch it up, they made a mission where you're the guy you escorted in the previous mission. While there aren't anywhere near as many commando missions as I would like (only four. One with Raynor, one with Tosh, one with Zeratul, and one with Raynor, Tychus, Swann, and Irritating Lab Guy. There's also the one that begins with Tychus and is ridiculously awesome, but I'm not counting that one because after a while you get a base. Though you don't need it. Tychus is awesome enough if you just give him four SCVs following him around. I also added two Goliaths, but that was just to be sexy), they were awesome anyway. And everything else about the game.
...
Oh, another negative side is that the girl I liked has kinda vanished since last Wednesday, but I guess that's more my fault.

[Guancyto]

Kerrigan's voiced by Tricia Helfer in SC2.

Oh, sorry. I should have said "Blonde."

You know, the one that isn't Kerrigan. I wouldn't beat around the bush like this if her very existence weren't a bit of a spoiler.