[Pathfinder] Does taking 10 in stressful situations ever unbalance the game?

[harpy]

I was just going over skills in detail and was wondering if there is ever a point at which taking 10 when "distracted or threatened" actually breaks the game?

The only skill that disallows this is UMD, and the only exception to this exception is with the Bard's level 19 effect of his Jack of all Trades class feature, which evidently allows taking 10 on any skill, including UMD.

This is in contrast to the Rogue's ability to take 10's even when stressed with his Skill Mastery talent at level 10.

I can see where taking 10 with UMD is bad, because it would allow spamming of UMD with abandon. It's not even an issue with stress, it hsa more to do with running amok with crafting and emulating, opening a wide hole in the normally categories for magic items. This is the biggest complaint made against the Warlock in 3.5. I'm guessing that they let the Bard do it at level 19 because there are only two levels left, the bard has been left behind by other full casters as is, and the power and effects at such high levels would easily drown out endless uses of UMD emulations.

But a lot of weight is being put into taking 10 when stressed, only being allowed with special exceptions at higher levels.

The thing is that I'm trying to figure out is how it would screw things up in the first 10 levels of the game? If someone is granted this ability earlier in their career for a specific skill, it seems as if all it does is make certain low hanging DCs auto successes, which in the grand sweep of things, isn't that big of a deal. The major benefit is that it gets rid of a lot of die rolling and help speed up play.

Am I missing anything? Putting aside UMD, does anything get mucked up with broken spamming by taking 10 even when stressed at lower levels?

[Hague]

It's not a big deal. The DM has absolute control over both your level of wealth and your access to magical items.

The Exemplar, for instance, gives you Skill Mastery a number of skills. High Int characters benefit especially so from a single dip in Exemplar. Granted, you need to be at least level 10 to access the class.

[Dairun Cates]

Tumble. Hide. Move Silently. Concentration. Swim. Balance. Climb. Jump... OH GOD JUMP.

Basically, anything that's a combat action becomes a bit of a problem. If you allow a player to take 10 on all these, then anyone with even a small amount of skill points will start auto-making just about any check you throw at them. It doesn't become an issue of "won't fail small challenges". You honestly won't fail BIG challenges before level 10 either.

You remove spell interruption as a viable tactic, make tumble mean automatically not having attacks of opportunity at as little as 1 rank, make it so characters with ranks in climb and swim can literally never drown in 20 foot high oceanic waves or fall off a cliff while attacking a giant bird. Fall off any reasonable balance check. Rogues LITERALLY cannot be spotted or heard by most people. Leap Attack has a predictable jump distance that can never be failed.

I guess the real problem is, you remove the point to have more than a couple of points in a few skills (you remove the point of having the skills at all really). The point of having a 19 effective climb check when the worst DC you'll usually handle as a sane person is to negate the chance of failure on nat 1 moments. If you allow ALL physical checks to take 10 under stress, you kinda instantly make people professionals with minimum investment in the skill. Sure, you won't be getting those hilarious nat 20 moments as much, but you'll ALWAYS make 90% of checks.

[Hague]

You could always take a 10 with Hide or Move Silently. There is no direct consequence for failure, since at no point does rolling a 1 even constitute not moving silently, it just means you aren't moving as silently as you should.

[Gnaeus]

Tumble. Hide. Move Silently. Concentration. Swim. Balance. Climb. Jump... OH GOD JUMP.

I find it slightly amusing that of all those skills only Swim and Climb are even skills in the game OP is discussing.

It is hard to break the game with skills. Generally, skill points are a little bit underwhelming.

Still, Dairun has a valid point. Allowing taking 10 freely will mean autosuccess at many common tasks at no or minimal skill point investment.

[Optimystik]

The only skill that disallows this is UMD, and the only exception to this exception is with the Bard's level 19 effect of his Jack of all Trades class feature, which evidently allows taking 10 on any skill, including UMD.

Actually, Warlocks can take 10 on UMD at level 4.

[2xMachina]

Take 10 on attack rolls too!

[Project_Mayhem]

Take 10 on attack rolls too!

I think M&M lets you do that with mooks actually.

[AstralFire]

Tumble. Hide. Move Silently. Concentration. Swim. Balance. Climb. Jump... OH GOD JUMP.

Basically, anything that's a combat action becomes a bit of a problem. If you allow a player to take 10 on all these, then anyone with even a small amount of skill points will start auto-making just about any check you throw at them. It doesn't become an issue of "won't fail small challenges". You honestly won't fail BIG challenges before level 10 either.

You remove spell interruption as a viable tactic, make tumble mean automatically not having attacks of opportunity at as little as 1 rank, make it so characters with ranks in climb and swim can literally never drown in 20 foot high oceanic waves or fall off a cliff while attacking a giant bird. Fall off any reasonable balance check. Rogues LITERALLY cannot be spotted or heard by most people. Leap Attack has a predictable jump distance that can never be failed.

I guess the real problem is, you remove the point to have more than a couple of points in a few skills (you remove the point of having the skills at all really). The point of having a 19 effective climb check when the worst DC you'll usually handle as a sane person is to negate the chance of failure on nat 1 moments. If you allow ALL physical checks to take 10 under stress, you kinda instantly make people professionals with minimum investment in the skill. Sure, you won't be getting those hilarious nat 20 moments as much, but you'll ALWAYS make 90% of checks.

8 ranks lets you take 10 at all times by your option, IMO. Because the amount of variation in effects for 'professionals' is ridiculous. Actually, just let them do it period and put emphasis on trained skills usages. You wanna talk about Jump? Let's talk about the idea that someone can try and make a long jump and move 1 foot one try, and 20 feet the next? What?

Raise concentration DCs IMO.

[Snake-Aes]

Tumble. Hide. Move Silently. Concentration. Swim. Balance. Climb. Jump... OH GOD JUMP.

Basically, anything that's a combat action becomes a bit of a problem. If you allow a player to take 10 on all these, then anyone with even a small amount of skill points will start auto-making just about any check you throw at them. It doesn't become an issue of "won't fail small challenges". You honestly won't fail BIG challenges before level 10 either.

You remove spell interruption as a viable tactic, make tumble mean automatically not having attacks of opportunity at as little as 1 rank, make it so characters with ranks in climb and swim can literally never drown in 20 foot high oceanic waves or fall off a cliff while attacking a giant bird. Fall off any reasonable balance check. Rogues LITERALLY cannot be spotted or heard by most people. Leap Attack has a predictable jump distance that can never be failed.

I guess the real problem is, you remove the point to have more than a couple of points in a few skills (you remove the point of having the skills at all really). The point of having a 19 effective climb check when the worst DC you'll usually handle as a sane person is to negate the chance of failure on nat 1 moments. If you allow ALL physical checks to take 10 under stress, you kinda instantly make people professionals with minimum investment in the skill. Sure, you won't be getting those hilarious nat 20 moments as much, but you'll ALWAYS make 90% of checks.

Taking 10 is not as useful as it used to be.

Casting defensively is 15 + Twice your spell level, so to take 10 on a high level spell you'll need really high stats. A wizard needs a +13 int modifier to take 10 and cast a lvl 9 spell at level 20.
Tumbling through threatened squares is an opposed roll against the enemy's CMD(read: BAB + STR + DEX + 10), which is way harder than 3.5

At the point stuff like climb and swim can be 'Tenned' in combat successfully, your characters are probably deserving it.

[Darkxarth]

Just a note to those not familiar with Pathfinder (the system the topic is regarding): Concentration is no longer a skill. Casting defensively requires a caster level check with a scaling DC of something like 15 + 2 x Spell Level (I believe).

That is all.

[Snake-Aes]

A little more than that. It's Caster Level + Casting Stat Modifier.

[jiriku]

Taking 10 results in the loss of uncertainty and suspense. It's the difference between

Can you jump that gap before the dragon reaches you? Well, you've got quite a Jump skill so you need to roll a 3 or better. But watch out if you roll a 1 or 2, it's into the pit!

and

Can you jump that gap before the dragon reaches you? Yes.

Major impact on gameplay? No. Major impact on fun? Some would say yes.

[Susano-wo]

@Astral. The range of success and failure in Dnd has bugged me for a long time!...unfortunately, I can't think of a great solution that doesn't make bonuses too powerful. (I guess 3d8 might not be too bad, and gives us a nice curve-factor with each roll). I have thought of adding 5 and rolling a d10, but that makes each + double in value (from +5% to +10%).

But the more I think about it, that 3D8 is looking mighty attractive....