Can A Sociopath Work His Way Into Celestia?

[EthanRayne]

So in D&D, intentions matter a lot in determining whether one is good or neutral.

What if you're born a sociopath and delight in the suffering of others, love tormenting others, and think killing sprees are totally rad but really want to end up in Celestia or one of the other good afterlives? You're not ambitious enough to work your way up from lemure to archfiend, you just want a nice happy eternity and so you're willing to give up the fun of your mortal lifespan.

If you devote your life to petting puppies, founding orphanages, and tending to the ill, will you be able to sneak into Celestia? Or will your intentions screw you over and land you in the Outlands or in the Abyss?

[snoopy13a]

A sociopath is just a person without any guilty feelings and a lack of empathy for others. Theorectically, it is quite possible for such a person to lead an upstanding life. Essentially, they have no impulse to do good but make a logically reasoned choice to good.

[Morph Bark]

Alignment-sneaking is one ability that I haven't ever seen. I could see a sociopath behaving in certain ways ending up as Chaotic Good, but Lawful is highly doubtful.

Frankly, your sociopath can't walk the social path enough to end up on the celestial path and enjoy a heavenly time.

[Boci]

Pet peeve: AFAIK, sociopath lack empathy, are very manipulative and have little respect for the law. They are not psycotic murders.

Personally, yes, I would rule that someone who supressed their evil urges all their life could go into celestia. They would be seen as a champion of restraint, proving that no one is doomed from birth to commit evil acts.

[Crow]

A true sociopath would probably be plenty happy in the afterlife to which he's best suited.

In the D&D cosmology, there is no real "bad" afterlife. People go to where they belong, and once there, seem to enjoy it.

[Morph Bark]

Pet peeve: AFAIK, sociopath lack empathy, are very manipulative and have little respect for the law. They are not psycotic murders.

Which is why I myself first checked with a definition of sociopath. I knew sociopath =/= psychopath, but the two often go hand-in-hand. A psychopath is definitely evil, a sociopath is more likely at least just chaotic.

That is what I gathered at least. "Little respect for the law" and "can't hold on to a steady job" were frequently mentioned. Seems un-Lawful.

[Ranos]

A true sociopath would probably be plenty happy in the afterlife to which he's best suited.

In the D&D cosmology, there is no real "bad" afterlife. People go to where they belong, and once there, seem to enjoy it.

I don't know which cosmology you've been reading, but Baator is NOT a pleasant place for petitionners. All you'll get there is a few centuries of agonizing torture until you are destroyed to create a lesser devil.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't know which cosmology you've been reading, but Baator is NOT a pleasant place for petitionners. All you'll get there is a few centuries of agonizing torture until you are destroyed to create a lesser devil.

Yeah, people think just because their alignments match their new homes they'd live happy lives. It doesn't work like that. With the evil ones, specifically, one is only happy if one manages to reach the top of the heap. Otherwise one's just fodder.

[ZeroNumerous]

That is what I gathered at least. "Little respect for the law" and "can't hold on to a steady job" were frequently mentioned. Seems un-Lawful.

Lawful is not just adherence to authority figures.

Chaotic is not just rebellion against authority figures.

Someone who is lawful is dependable, trustworthy and keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it.

Someone who is chaotic is free-spirited, alters his/her decisions based on what is happening now and can only be trusted to act in specific ways(based on his/her Good/Evil alignment) rather than act on a given word.

Lawful/Chaotic individuals can adhere to or break the law dependent on how beneficial it is at the time.

[Boci]

Someone who is lawful is dependable, trustworthy and keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it.

For a sociopath:

Dependanble: Yes. If you known them well enough and can comprehend their logical thinking style, they are unlikely to do anything that will suprise you too much.

Trustworthy: Yes and no. Certainly not in the "I owe a friend a favour" way, but quite possibly in the "I want you to owe me a favour" way.

Keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it: Not really, especially not if there was little or no chance others would find out they broke their word.

[ZeroNumerous]

Keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it: Not really, especially not if there was little or no chance others would find out they broke their word.

I think you're being a bit harsh there, as anyone who discovers that our hypothetical sociopath has broken his hypothetical word will cease to trust him. As such, it is logically better to maintain the illusion of trustworthiness than to have it removed if he desires cooperation from those he wishes to appear trusthworthy to.

[Snake-Aes]

I think you're being a bit harsh there, as anyone who discovers that our hypothetical sociopath has broken his hypothetical word will cease to trust him. As such, it is logically better to maintain the illusion of trustworthiness than to have it removed if he desires cooperation from those he wishes to appear trusthworthy to.

I do believe that would fit under "convenient to keep"

[Crow]

Yeah, people think just because their alignments match their new homes they'd live happy lives. It doesn't work like that. With the evil ones, specifically, one is only happy if one manages to reach the top of the heap. Otherwise one's just fodder.

It's the maneuvering to get to the top of that heap that makes those individuals feel at home. Some people relish that struggle, and the opportunity to inflict more pain on others in that struggle grants them fulfillment.

[Boci]

It's the maneuvering to get to the top of that heap that makes those individuals feel at home. Some people relish that struggle, and the opportunity to inflict more pain on others in that struggle grants them fulfillment.

I think you will find a staggering majority view the couple of centaries of torture and the overwhelping odds of failure to really dent their enjoyment of the proccess however.

[HamHam]

Someone who acts Lawful Good is Lawful Good, regardless of what may be happening internally, by and large. Especially if they are actively trying to follow a Lawful Good path, and not just following the law and such because they don't want to get in trouble.

[Math_Mage]

Sociopaths are not generally concerned with such long-term self-control. Clearly someone without empathy may still conduct their affairs according to enlightened self-interest; but in that case, would we describe the person as a sociopath? After all, the typical sociopath is not only less concerned with other people, but less concerned with the consequences of his actions. It is not inconceivable for such a person to lead a 'good' life through inertia; but to actively strive for a good afterlife through responsible behavior in this one?

[Boci]

Sociopaths are not generally concerned with such long-term self-control. Clearly someone without empathy may still conduct their affairs according to enlightened self-interest; but in that case, would we describe the person as a sociopath? After all, the typical sociopath is not only less concerned with other people, but less concerned with the consequences of his actions. It is not inconceivable for such a person to lead a 'good' life through inertia; but to actively strive for a good afterlife through responsible behavior in this one?

It logical, especially since afterlife last a lot longer than material plane life.

[fryplink]

I think it wouldn't be "sneaking in" as much as Celestia applauding his entry with fanfare, as he fought his instincts to achieve good, (the fact that the good was for the sole entry into the afterlife doesn't matter, because he was trying to be good)

[WinWin]

A Judge Dredd style Grey Guard might be considered sociopathic. Especially if they were focused on the greater good and considered individuals an unimportant consideration. Not a strict interpretation of the term sociopathy...But D&D is a game about killing stuff to become more powerful, after all. Real world definitions don't quite fit.

[Grumman]

The character would definitely be Lawful, as they're going out of their way to follow a set of self-imposed rules instead of just going with whatever comes naturally.

I'd say they would be allowed in. They would never be granted the power to become a Paladin or a Cleric, but they could definitely be given the good ending.

[Lycanthromancer]

Now, how about this one:

A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

[Math_Mage]

It logical, especially since afterlife last a lot longer than material plane life.

Unfortunately, that sort of logic is what sociopaths seem to be especially weak on. Psychopathy isn't a trade of logical ability for empathy.

(Of course, that could be sampling bias--if someone lacks empathy, but behaves out of rational self-interest, how would we identify them as a sociopath? But then, that's exactly the problem I'm pointing out. Sociopaths are defined not only by a personal quality, but also by a behavior pattern.)

EDIT:

Now, how about this one:

A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

The good afterlife, neh? Consider the attitude expressed in Miko's final moments. Yes, I know I'm opening a huge can of worms there.

[Grumman]

A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

The Helm of Opposite Alignment is an utterly moronic creation, but I'd say he gets no credit for good acts he was magically compelled to perform unless his un-altered personality would have learnt from the experience had the curse been lifted.

[Harperfan7]

I think you mean psychopath, not sociopath. Psychopaths are literally born evil, they can't change. A sociopath is more environmental, they become sociopaths.

Regardless, I doubt there are psychopaths in D&D worlds, because no one, not even half-fiends, are born evil.

Anyways, can an evil person get into an upper plane solely because they don't want to burn for eternity (by doing good things and/or not doing bad things)?

I would say yes, heaven is supposed to be a reward even if you don't really have the heart of a good person. They probably wouldn't get the full package of heavenly splendor, but they get coach at least (and even coach in the upper planes kicks a lot of ass).

[Math_Mage]

I think you mean psychopath, not sociopath. Psychopaths are literally born evil, they can't change. A sociopath is more environmental, they become sociopaths.

All the more reason to question how one can be classified as a sociopath while systematically avoiding sociopathic behavior for the sake of a Good afterlife.

[Morph Bark]

Someone who acts Lawful Good is Lawful Good, regardless of what may be happening internally, by and large. Especially if they are actively trying to follow a Lawful Good path, and not just following the law and such because they don't want to get in trouble.

I think you are contradicting yourself here. First you say it depends on your actions, not your intentions (= "what may be happening internally"). Then you talk about that it matters why they are following the law, so it does depend on something internally?

[Yora]

Most religions seem to claim, that the dead are judged by their deeds in life. Our current concept of justice may be a bit different, but I don't know about any pre-modern religion where the dead were judged by the purity of their souls.

[Rothen]

All the more reason to question how one can be classified as a sociopath while systematically avoiding sociopathic behavior for the sake of a Good afterlife.

This.

Sure, you can argue that a sociopath can have enough control to not act like a sociopath. But then again, isn't that guy just a regular person then?

Like all of out discussions, this just breaks down to semantics. Define 'sociopath'.

[Ingus]

I think it depends on how do you see alignment on D&D.
Providing you're thinking that a sociopath is at least CN, or CE, the difference in the outcome is how do you see alignment in D&D.
If you think it is a mark, like RAW suggests, in the afterlife there would be a divine judge (or a bunch of divinities) picking up souls.
"Epic, Divine, Salient Detect Alignment" and then "CG to Arvandor, LG to Celestia, CE to the Abyss, LN to mechanus..."
"Hey, well... I may be CE, but I always behave as a good boy!"
"Go to Abyss and shut up, evil bastard!"

If you see it more like a final judgement on lives, it would be more complicated. And, although difficult, a sociopath can go to heavens (say, by the enlightned guide of a charismatic paladin)

[hamishspence]

A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

Going by FC2, he'd get reborn as a hellbred- if you have a massive taint of evil acts, but for some reason (not necessarily requiring the Helm) you're genuinely repentant and trying to atone when you die- you qualify .

Thus getting to ignore the "a lawful character who dies with a Corruption of 9, goes to Baator no matter how much good he did in life" clause.

If you're not using FC2, it may depend on the DM.

Manual of the Planes has a CE wizard, who Celestia has admitted in, because he genuinely wishes to reform, even though he "retains many of the attitudes of his former lifestyle"

He is, however, still alive at the time- so where his soul will go when he dies depends on how much he's reformed.

I think you mean psychopath, not sociopath. Psychopaths are literally born evil, they can't change. A sociopath is more environmental, they become sociopaths.

Regardless, I doubt there are psychopaths in D&D worlds, because no one, not even half-fiends, are born evil.

Actually, quite a lot of creatures are "born evil" (half fiends, chromatic dragons, etc) since the MM states that Always X Evil creatures are born with the listed alignment.

However, they can change- there are nonevil half-fiends out there, and a few nonevil chromatic dragons.