[3.5e/Pathfinder] Unlimited lvl 0 spell casts

[HunterOfJello]

I noticed that in Pathfinder, the spellcasting classes can cast an unlimited number of 0 level spells per day. I thought this was a cool idea and am considering implementing it in my 3.5e game.


Along with the change I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Has anyone else used this method in a 3.5e game and are there any other spells I should restrict or things I should watch out for?

[Endarire]

With cure minor at will, we can heal to full between fights given ample time. When each party member requires 5+ minutes to heal, other healing sources become more appealing.

[Prodan]

Create Water?

[Kylarra]

I'd arcane mark everything.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In my group you simply don't have to prepare 0 level spells they aren't unlimited but considered of such minor importance it doesn't matter.

[Ravens_cry]

Detect magic at will can up WBL.

[Another_Poet]

I noticed that in Pathfinder, the spellcasting classes can cast an unlimited number of 0 level spells per day.

Not anymore, I believe that was just in the beta. Though my group still does it anyway as a house rule.

I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Has anyone else used this method in a 3.5e game and are there any other spells I should restrict or things I should watch out for?

No, you should be fine. Just remember....

1) Ongoing Detect Magic requires concentration, and even if concentrating, only alerts to the presence or absence of auras in the first round that you come into range of an aura. Your players will probably want to abuse constant Detect Magic but it's actually pretty tame.

2) I suggest that magic traps do not give off magic auras because they are intentionally hidden. So unlimited detect magic does not replace the rogue.

3) When the party decides to stand back while the wizard uses unlimited acid splash to remove a locked door or other feature, just remember.... objects apply their hardness against acid. 1d3 cannot damage most objects.

ap

[IonDragon]

I would cast Resistance every minute while walking. See, you're only taking one move action a round while walking or you would be hustling and become tired.

[KnightOfV]

Along with the change I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Has anyone else used this method in a 3.5e game and are there any other spells I should restrict or things I should watch out for?

Pathfinder already changed the cure and inflict cantrips for balance. Cure minor now only stabilizes a dying character (no hp is restored). Inflict makes a stabilized character at 0 hp or lower start bleeding to death again. Not really abusable in that form.

You can cast Resistance over and over as IonDragon suggested for a (almost) permanent +1 to saves, but remember the bonus does not stack with Cloaks of resistance and casters will usually rather have something else prepared. (light, prestidigitate, detect magic, mage hand, etc)

I think the infinite cantrips thing was a good move overall, always hated keeping track of 0 level mostly flavor stuff.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Not anymore, I believe that was just in the beta. Though my group still does it anyway as a house rule.

ap

Sorry, it still does. It made it into the Core Rules book.

We're in the process of making a spell list for a PF-derived E6 game - we've dropped the Cure Minor Wounds spell in favour of "Stabilise".

[Morph Bark]

In my group you simply don't have to prepare 0 level spells they aren't unlimited but considered of such minor importance it doesn't matter.

This sounds like a good way to do it. Sort of a middle ground. Or you could make every level 0 spell castable 3 times per day for free, but no more, as if you were using spell points for them.

[J.Gellert]

We haven't kept track of cantrips in our games for years. Often it was just ignored, other times we house-ruled it.

[Goosegg]

Detect magic can also be fooled with a magic aura spell.

[EvilJoe15]

Infinite cantrips are useful, but once you take Sanctum Spell, you get infinite 1st level spells too. Possibly even higher ones with Arcane Thesis, and Incantatrix.

Personally, if one of my players did this I'd commend them, and then throw out a Dragon with the same trick.

[AvatarZero]

Sorry, it still does. It made it into the Core Rules book..

There was a change between the beta and the published version; in the beta, cantrips were considered spell-like abilities instead of spells with infinite uses per day. The difference there is that spell-like abilities don't have components, so you could use Ghost Sound, Mage Hand or Prestidigitation without giving away that you were casting a spell. I miss that; I perenially play arcane thief types (Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, Beguiler, Spellthief) so that was really interesting.

[ninjaneer003]

Infinite Prestidigitation...so much fun

[Snake-Aes]

Infinite Prestidigitation...so much fun

I usually have my noncasters buy a permanency prestidigitation just so I can always have appropriate wind rustling my hair when I do dynamic / dramatic entrances. Or spilling someone else's drink.
Or dye their pants.
Or making the cleric's food taste like ogre piss because he didn't heal me.

[Coidzor]

Along with the change I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Those would only really be useful at low levels anyway. As after that you're spending enough time healing that it's begging for any surviving enemies in the area to pull anti-rope trick tactics while the party is still out in the open.

So it only effects levels, what, 1-3, maybe just 1-2.

To avoid the sanctum spell and arcane thesis thing, it would require a simple ruling that it's actual cantrips, not things that are effectively 0th level. Or heck, just meta-magic getting anywhere near cantrips makes them take up at least a 1st level slot.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Infinite caltrops, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Presta, stick and Create Water? Yes please!

[Dracons]

Hmm... Infinite caltrops, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Presta, stick and Create Water? Yes please!

Ohh infinite caltrops... Yawn.

Launch Bolt? So a wizard can use a crossbow bolt, for one action. Fine.

Create Water can be changed to it only makes a gallon of water per casting. You really want to spend several minutes to get several gallons, go ahead.

Neer heard of Presta, and Stick. Where are they?

[EvilJoe15]

A wizard can launch Infinite Colossal Bolts with an action.

[jiriku]

Except that a wizard cannot carry infinite colossal bolts. And if one goes through shenanigans involving magical gear or higher-level spells to do so, then the bolt-launching option now involves a resource expenditure, neh?

[EvilJoe15]

Eschew Materials.

[arguskos]

Presta=shorthand for Prestidigitation.
Stick is a cantrip from Spell Compendium that does precisely what you think it does: sticks stuff to other stuff. It's like glue, the spell.

As for infinite cantrips, yeah, it's not really a balance issue. Hell, I petition every DM I every play under for that rule, since I love me some cantrips. Everyone here who hates cantrips or never uses them makes me . Cantrips are the best thing ever. I'd love to play in E6 with a custom class that just gets hordes and hordes of cantrips, including lots of custom ones. I love cantrips and reserve feats just that much.

[Snake-Aes]

Launch Item
Target: One fine item weighing up to 10lb.

[jiriku]

And then you're launching...what exactly?

[EvilJoe15]

Launch Bolt
Material Component: The crossbow
bolt to be fired (1 sp)

[arguskos]

Launch Item
Target: One fine item weighing up to 10lb.

I swear to god, if you seriously start with the "colossal crossbow bolts are Fine-sized" I will punch someone.

Also, Launch Item is great for throwing explosives, moltov-cocktails, and alchemist's fire/acid.

[Kylarra]

Those would only really be useful at low levels anyway. As after that you're spending enough time healing that it's begging for any surviving enemies in the area to pull anti-rope trick tactics while the party is still out in the open.

So it only effects levels, what, 1-3, maybe just 1-2.

To avoid the sanctum spell and arcane thesis thing, it would require a simple ruling that it's actual cantrips, not things that are effectively 0th level. Or heck, just meta-magic getting anywhere near cantrips makes them take up at least a 1st level slot.

Arcane thesis can't drop things below their original spell level anyway, so it's only sanctum spell that's an issue. My take would simply to remove 0th level spells from the game and all your cantrips effectively become SLAs like invocations.

[Snake-Aes]

And then you're launching...what exactly?

Nothing. The only component is somatic. And it still takes a standard action to cast it. So you can't hurl "infinite colossal bolts".
you can't hurl "one colossal bolt"
nor "infinite diminutive bolts".

it's "one fine item weighing up to 10lb". And you can't eschew it, and you use a standard action to cast it.