TOB Cheese Discussion

[Mr.Smashy]

Does anyone on this forum know how this could happen. IMHO, TOB is total cheese. Im just not comfortable bringing Dragon Ball Z(c) into the D&D world. Let me elaborate...

"One fine day, in a low to mid level game, we all sat down to play. An hour into the session we came across our first combat. Joe stated that he was going to activate two of his stances, and that allowed him to fly 90' per round with perfect manuverability, while on fire, and I can shoot blasts of energy as a ranged touch attack"

I proceeded to stand up and walk out of the game completely disgusted. I haven't started playing again until recently. I joined this forum in hopes that someone else out there is like minded. Please explain to me why people can even read TOB: BoNS and not laugh. The people in the book even have DBZ Hair.


My question is... Do you like TOB, and if so, why?

[Volthawk]

Three things.

1) Wrong forum. You need the Roleplaying Games section.

2) This is going to devolve into a flamewar, as per usual.

3) Personally, I like it. It all depends on what you balance against. Anyway, you can't use two stances at once.

[DragoonWraith]

1. This is the wrong forum.
2. Posting in a manner such as you have is just asking for an argument. That's really unwise.
3. There is, at a minimum, a new thread every week on this subject. It's been beaten to death, you might consider searching the forum for past discussions to learn how others feel.
4. That isn't ToB, that's cheating. There are no stances that allow you to do that, and using two stances at once requires either Warblade 20, or Master of Nine 5, and the Mo9 version is quite limited. Learn what is actually in the book before disparaging it, and suggest that your DM learn what's in any book he allows before he allows it.
5. I completely disagree with you, but this is not the place to argue that nor is this a good way to start such a discussion.

[Siosilvar]

"One fine day, in a low to mid level game, we all sat down to play. An hour into the session we came across our first combat. Joe stated that he was going to activate two of his stances, and that allowed him to fly 90' per round with perfect manuverability, while on fire, and I can shoot blasts of energy as a ranged touch attack"

The closest things I can think of to what you've stated here are a Tiger Claw stance that lets you make jump checks whenever you want, a Desert Wind stance that burns people that hit you, and a Desert Wind strike that lets you hurl a ball of flame.

Note that Desert Wind is explicitly called out as being supernatural, and that Swordsages have Medium BAB, very little ability to recover their maneuvers, and are the only class with access to Desert Wind.

This guy's build must've been something like Swordsage 7/Master of Nine 2 and spent five feats (he only has 4 even as a human unless he took a flaw) and he can be in two stances at once for a grand total of 4 rounds per day.

My question is... Do you like TOB, and if so, why?

Yes, I do. It gives melee useful things to do.

Plus, the vast majority of it (with the exception of Desert Wind, Shadow Hand (another Swordsage-only discipline), and Devoted Spirit(only available to Crusaders; mostly it's "hit stuff and heal other things")) is NOT supernatural or "DBZ-like".

Not to mention that some people, you know, find "DBZ-like" fun.

[Frog Dragon]

Does anyone on this forum know how this could happen. IMHO, TOB is total cheese. Im just not comfortable bringing Dragon Ball Z(c) into the D&D world. Let me elaborate...

"One fine day, in a low to mid level game, we all sat down to play. An hour into the session we came across our first combat. Joe stated that he was going to activate two of his stances, and that allowed him to fly 90' per round with perfect manuverability, while on fire, and I can shoot blasts of energy as a ranged touch attack"

I proceeded to stand up and walk out of the game completely disgusted. I haven't started playing again until recently. I joined this forum in hopes that someone else out there is like minded. Please explain to me why people can even read TOB: BoNS and not laugh. The people in the book even have DBZ Hair.


My question is... Do you like TOB, and if so, why?

While this post is a total flamebait, I'll try to give a valid answer. Also, wrong forum, as the other two posters said.
Your example is a complete hyperbole. Stances don't do anything close to that. The only stance I know that allows you to even hover is the eight level Desert Wind Stance. This means it can be gained at level 15. Meanwhile, wizards have been flying for ten levels already. Facts are that maneuvers are vastly weaker than spells, when not counting the very few actually broken maneuvers.
Fluff is mutable, and I didn't find any DBZ hair artwork. Even if there was any, just ignore it. It has little to do with the actual game. ToB is a way to give meleers a way to gain options and if the problem is with the supernaturality of some of the stuff (almost all of which is outright said to be supernatural) then let me ask you one thing. Do you have a problem with eldritch knights?
Cheese it is not. There is a grand total of two actually broken maneuvers. White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge. The first because it makes fun of action economy. The second because it is too loosely worded and can be interpreted to break pretty damn near anything. AMF? IRON HEEAART SUURRGEE!! Mass charm? IRON HEEAART SUURRGEE!! However, a nice application of common sense overrides those problems rather nicely.
ToB is effective on the baseline, but rather hard to cheese. If you're playing with blaster wizards, healbot clerics and fighters with weapon specialization, then ToB may seem overpowering. If someone actually knows how to optimize and the wizard is say.. BCing, then ToB will just even the gap between the wizard and the warrior.
The wuxia in ToB is arguable and it certainly isn't DragonballZ in tabletop form. I would like you to give me and example of a maneuver that actually emulates dragonball Z? I haven't found any ki blasts in that book.
I may have repeated myself a bit there, but in conclusion, It's not dragonballZ, it's not cheese, it's just options for martial characters.
Edit: Swordsage'd. Typical, really.
Edit: And yes, I like ToB. I encourage it's use in my gaming table, and most of my melee builds use it. No dragonballZ found in any of these.
Also, concerning the quality of DBZ. The Frieza Arc was pretty good.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Please explain to me why people can even read TOB: BoNS and not laugh.

Because some people like DragonBallZ? And it gives melee fun things to do?

And only one of the base classes (Swordsage) is even remotely supernatural while the other two are basically "Hit things in a certain way". Most of Swordsage's stuff is just "hit things in a certain way" too.

And, as already stated, no stances in the book do that (that second one sounds more like a strike anyway), because everyone would take that first one. Also you can't use two stances at once without 20 levels in Warblade or 52 of Master of Nine. Your guy probably picked up some homebrew off the web and you just didn't realize (or made his own maneuvers, which you can do, but then blame the DM for allowing them).

My question is... Do you like TOB, and if so, why?

Yes, I do. It gives a lot more options to melee, some of which are quite hard to get otherwise and make some concepts *coughcough*monk*cough* more viable.

Edit: Also, Swordsage works fairly well for... ninjas.

[Demons_eye]

I do not wish to be mean but this is the posters first post, I believe this account was made for trolling so I would suggest just reporting and moving on.

If not then the above poster have more then said everything right and I would like to add: You can do DBZ in normall DnD without the need for ToB. My wizard flys around with a glowing arua when speeding up and all fire balls come with the saying 'Kamehameha'.

[Siosilvar]

@everybody here: Dual Stance is a 2nd-level Master of Nine ability. It works for a grand total of 2 rounds per day per class level.

At level 5, you get +2 to hit with strikes and a damage bonus equal to the number of disciplines you readied maneuvers from.

[Frog Dragon]

I do not wish to be mean but this is the posters first post, I believe this account was made for trolling so I would suggest just reporting and moving on.

Frankly, no. Giving an opinion is not trolling. This wouldn't fit the parameters for proven trolling, despite the epic level hyperboles.

[Morph Bark]

Besides agreeing with a lot that has been said already, let me add that the wizard could emulate DBZ before ToB came out. Fly + evocation gets you places (fly! Gettit?! *shot*), not to mention that they can transform through spells. A Warlock/Monk combination suits it even more since DBZ is basically "I throw around energy with different colours and shapes and sometimes I hit people really fast". ToB characters don't throw around energy, though they do sometimes hit people really fast. They do more than that, though.

Honestly, while ToB has often been said by haters of it to be "too anime", DBZ is one of the least good examples of anime to compare it with...

[Mr.Smashy]

I noticed that i posted in the wrong forum after the fact. I apologize in advance to all who would make that known.

Honestly, I am not Trolling. I was not trying to start a comp war by inciting nerd rage in everyone. I am a longtime reader, first time poster on GitP. I just remembered why i got out of the game in the first place.

In my defence, I didn't see where it said you can only use one stance at a time. I have moved on from that group, and have since had great times with my current group. Again, not trying to get anyone shot over a post, sort of new at this thing.

[Milskidasith]

I noticed that i posted in the wrong forum after the fact. I apologize in advance to all who would make that known.

Honestly, I am not Trolling. I was not trying to start a comp war by inciting nerd rage in everyone. I am a longtime reader, first time poster on GitP. I just remembered why i got out of the game in the first place.

In my defence, I didn't see where it said you can only use one stance at a time. I have moved on from that group, and have since had great times with my current group. Again, not trying to get anyone shot over a post, sort of new at this thing.

Saying "in my defense, I was mistaken" does not change that you were mistaken, nor does it change the fact that your opinion was based on that mistake.

[The Dark Fiddler]

In my defence, I didn't see where it said you can only use one stance at a time. I have moved on from that group, and have since had great times with my current group. Again, not trying to get anyone shot over a post, sort of new at this thing.

Eh, we all make mistakes sometimes, but you should double check things like that before you go on a rant over them in the future, else something less happen again (everyone should learn to do that, really).

It's kinda like the people who say Psionics are too powerful because they miss the rule about not spending more power points than the manifester level.

[Frog Dragon]

It's kinda like the people who say Psionics are too powerful because they miss the rule about not spending more power points than the manifester level.

Actually, there is a valid argument to be made that they are overpowered even without that misconception. They're weaker than full casters, but still stronger than most things in the game. Just for a nitpick.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

"One fine day, in a low to mid level game, we all sat down to play. An hour into the session we came across our first combat. Joe stated that he was going to activate two of his stances, and that allowed him to fly 90' per round with perfect manuverability, while on fire, and I can shoot blasts of energy as a ranged touch attack"

As others have stated, this is either a case of complete rules misunderstanding, not actually having the book, or straight up cheating. There is no way to actually fly in the Tome of Battle (you can levitate on superheated air if you're a Swordsage, but that's it), being on fire is decent at best, and shooting energy can be done every other round, tops. Also, a Wizard could be doing the same thing at level 5 (fly, scorching ray, and there's probably an "on fire" spell out there somewhere).

Please explain to me why people can even read TOB: BoNS and not laugh.

Because the mechanics are almost entirely sound, the system is well built, and it gives melee characters options. Sure, the names might be silly, but flavor is mutable.

How, in-game, can you tell the difference between someone using Adamantine Hurricane and a berserker just going ape-**** on you with a greatsword? Here's a tip: both of them used Adamantine Hurricane. One just didn't have a fancy name for it.

Even the crazier ones can be explained. Did my Swordsage use Desert Inferno Blast and channel fire through his weapon, or did my holy warrior of Pelor summon an avatar of Pelor's mighty fist to strike his foes with the purifying fires of his god? Both used Desert Inferno Blast, from a strictly mechanical standpoint.

Basically, it's a very strong and balanced rules system that brings melee characters up a little more in the battle of melee vs. magic. Almost all of the non-supernatural maneuvers can be explained as simply being good in battle, and even the supernatural ones can be twisted in flavor to fit a variety on concepts without being like DBZ or a Wuxia movie.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Actually, there is a valid argument to be made that they are overpowered even without that misconception. They're weaker than full casters, but still stronger than most things in the game. Just for a nitpick.

True, but I'm talking about the people who shout "PSIONICS IZ OVERPOWERD" and then see no problem with Wizards and Druids and such.

[Milskidasith]

As others have stated, this is either a case of complete rules misunderstanding, not actually having the book, or straight up cheating. There is no way to actually fly in the Tome of Battle (you can levitate on superheated air if you're a Swordsage, but that's it), being on fire is decent at best, and shooting energy can be done every other round, tops. Also, a Wizard could be doing the same thing at level 5 (fly, scorching ray, and there's probably an "on fire" spell out there somewhere).



Because the mechanics are almost entirely sound, the system is well built, and it gives melee characters options. Sure, the names might be silly, but flavor is mutable.

How, in-game, can you tell the difference between someone using Adamantine Hurricane and a berserker just going ape-**** on you with a greatsword? Here's a tip: both of them used Adamantine Hurricane. One just didn't have a fancy name for it.

Even the crazier ones can be explained. Did my Swordsage use Desert Inferno Blast and channel fire through his weapon, or did my holy warrior of Pelor summon an avatar of Pelor's mighty fist to strike his foes with the purifying fires of his god? Both used Desert Inferno Blast, from a strictly mechanical standpoint.

Basically, it's a very strong and balanced rules system that brings melee characters up a little more in the battle of melee vs. magic. Almost all of the non-supernatural maneuvers can be explained as simply being good in battle, and even the supernatural ones can be twisted in flavor to fit a variety on concepts without being like DBZ or a Wuxia movie.

And then there are the times you can also get sillier; for example, you could fluff Death from Above as, instead of jumping and stabbing somebody from above, having your bear cohort (yay feats) launch you into the air like a circus act.

Yes, I did just myself.

[Siosilvar]

And then there are the times you can also get sillier; for example, you could fluff Death from Above as, instead of jumping and stabbing somebody from above, having your bear cohort (yay feats) launch you into the air like a circus act.

Yes, I did just myself.

I am not sure whether to laugh, cower, or make that into my next character...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And then there are the times you can also get sillier; for example, you could fluff Death from Above as, instead of jumping and stabbing somebody from above, having your bear cohort (yay feats) launch you into the air like a circus act.

Yes, I did just myself.

Oh, of course. Always entertaining.

[Frog Dragon]

True, but I'm talking about the people who shout "PSIONICS IZ OVERPOWERD" and then see no problem with Wizards and Druids and such.

I did say it was for a nitpick.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: There is already an active ToB thread in the Roleplaying Forum. Please feel free to discuss this there. Please don't call people trolls or say that they are trolling; if you think someone is trolling, just report them and move along.