Can someone UMD a runestaff?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was browsing over the PHB section on skills, and the example for UMD having a class feature to activate a magic item, mentions Lida UMD the ability to "spend" a turn undead attempt.

Now by this one could UMD spending a spell slot to activate a Runestaff right?

I think now my rogue will be more than happy once we visit a big city

What do you think?

[Aroka]

Only if you're Hawkmoon.

No, seriously, at-will spell-like abilities requiring nothing but a skill check is way unbalanced. Shouldn't be allowed.

[Darth Stabber]

By RAW the answer is certainly yes. Every time she makes the check, she gets the free spell. In practice I would limit it (2-4 times per day, or scaling DC to activate). Never thought of it before, awesome trick I may have to pull. The big question is caster level and save dc, but I think minimum to cast it would be a reasonable assumption.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't have the Mic with me, but I think they are only useable 1/day per spell in the staff, so I think that balances it somewhat.

but my questions is by RAW would using UMD with a runestaff be allowed.

YAY!!!

[Curmudgeon]

I was browsing over the PHB section on skills, and the example for UMD having a class feature to activate a magic item, mentions Lida UMD the ability to "spend" a turn undead attempt.

You misread this.

She attempts to activate the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher to succeed.
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

Lidda emulates having the ability to turn undead. She never has any actual turn undead attempts to spend, though.

So the answer is no.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As I said I don't have MIC handy at the moment, but I think Runestaffs need the expenditure of the spell slot to activate, so by my reading you are UMD'ing the expenditure of a spell slot.

I might be wrong though, that's why I figured I should ask.

[Draz74]

So the answer is no.

Thank goodness. UMD is already the best skill in the game. This would make it 10x better if paired with the right (wrong?) items.

[Keld Denar]

I don't remember any example of Lidda using UMD to give her a TU attempt. You could use UMD to replicate the presence of the TU feature (which would allow you to activate an item that required the TU feature), but not actually spending a TU attempt to channel energy into the item.

Similarly, you can use UMD to simulate the "arcane spellcasting" class ability, thus allowing you to use Spell Trigger items like wands, but you don't actually gain any spell slots.

So yea, you can trick the Runestaff into thinking that you are a sorcerer, but it would see you as a sorcerer who's spell slots are depleted, since you don't actually have any slots to expend for its abilities.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh well, it seems I misread the abillity badly... anyways it was a nice while it lasted.....(the thought, never got around to actually try it)

[Darth Stabber]

Now if you have a wand with the same level of spell in it, you might convice the rune staff that you have 50 of that spell ready to go, and just feed it the wand. Or even better convince it that you wand of acid splash is the right level. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha.

-nah, the dc would be really high. If you could get glibness first, maybe.

[Snake-Aes]

Now if you have a wand with the same level of spell in it, you might convice the rune staff that you have 50 of that spell ready to go, and just feed it the wand. Or even better convince it that you wand of acid splash is the right level. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha.

-nah, the dc would be really high. If you could get glibness first, maybe.

XD You cast glibness to convince yourself that you are really good with umd, gaining a +8 morale bonus to UMD! MWAHAHAHA!

[Suropej]

The Hierophant PrC in the DMG has an ablility (Gift of the Divine) to transfer 1 or more of their Turn Undead attempts to another willing creature.

So... yea. There's a TU for a non-cleric to UMD with.

[Dogmantra]

No, seriously, at-will spell-like abilities requiring nothing but a skill check is way unbalanced. Shouldn't be allowed.

Those darn Truenamers, always breaking games.

[Fax Celestis]

So yea, you can trick the Runestaff into thinking that you are a sorcerer, but it would see you as a sorcerer who's spell slots are depleted, since you don't actually have any slots to expend for its abilities.

...unless you already have spell slots that aren't depleted but don't trigger the runestaff.

Beguiler up up and awayyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[VirOath]

A little bit off topic. But if you used UMD to replicate just having the Turn Undead feature, and you were carrying Nightsticks, could you expend a turn undead feature from the nightstick?

Because the way I'm reading it is that for the hour or use, it gives you the class feature at 0 uses, but if you have an item that would increase that number of uses above zero, then?

[gbprime]

A little bit off topic. But if you used UMD to replicate just having the Turn Undead feature, and you were carrying Nightsticks, could you expend a turn undead feature from the nightstick?

Twitch, twitch...

[Radar]

A little bit off topic. But if you used UMD to replicate just having the Turn Undead feature, and you were carrying Nightsticks, could you expend a turn undead feature from the nightstick?

Because the way I'm reading it is that for the hour or use, it gives you the class feature at 0 uses, but if you have an item that would increase that number of uses above zero, then?

Good find!
Also: Dragonsblood Pool mentioned in this guide can be used to obtain arcane spell slots. The problem is, if it can be pulled off by a non-caster. I don't have the specific wording for the Pool unfortunately. If the answer is "yes", then the problem of runestaves would be solved eventualy.

[Marriclay]

A little bit off topic. But if you used UMD to replicate just having the Turn Undead feature, and you were carrying Nightsticks, could you expend a turn undead feature from the nightstick?

Because the way I'm reading it is that for the hour or use, it gives you the class feature at 0 uses, but if you have an item that would increase that number of uses above zero, then?

That's insane! Does anyone remember the Memento Magica item in Races of the Dragon? It restores one of your spell slots! You don't have any spells to cast with it, but you now have the spell slots!

[Radar]

That's insane! Does anyone remember the Memento Magica item in Races of the Dragon? It restores one of your spell slots! You don't have any spells to cast with it, but you now have the spell slots!

Spell slot Nightsticks? Wicked!

Also: I just noticed, that according to Doc Rocs' guide, Dragonsblood Pool requires ability to cast second level spells and being a spontaneous caster. The first is obtained through mentioned Magical Training + Precautious Apprentice trick, the second most probably through UMD (if you can trick an item, you probably can trick a location, right?). Unfortunately you can't obtain slots of arbitrary high level.

[dextercorvia]

Spell slot Nightsticks? Wicked!

Also: I just noticed, that according to Doc Rocs' guide, Dragonsblood Pool requires ability to cast second level spells and being a spontaneous caster. The first is obtained through mentioned Magical Training + Precautious Apprentice trick, the second most probably through UMD (if you can trick an item, you probably can trick a location, right?). Unfortunately you can't obtain slots of arbitrary high level.

Actually, Magical Training gives you the choice between Spontaneous and Prepared casting. You'll need an enhancer like Sanctum Spell, or Improved Krau Sigil to get that 3rd level slot out of the Dragonsblood Pool. If you have gone that far, take Earth Spell, and... well you'll see. It's fairly feat intensive to get higher level casting without any actual levels in a spellcasting class, but it isn't impossible.

[Curmudgeon]

That's insane! Does anyone remember the Memento Magica item in Races of the Dragon? It restores one of your spell slots! You don't have any spells to cast with it, but you now have the spell slots!

Sorry; while the UMD + Nightstick trick looks legit, that one doesn't work.

Once per day on command, a memento magica enables its possessor to regain any one spell slot that she had previously used that day.

Use Magic Device can let you emulate being a spontaneous spellcaster, but the item still won't activate unless you had used the right level spell slot already that day.

[Marriclay]

Sorry; while the UMD + Nightstick trick looks legit, that one doesn't work. Use Magic Device can let you emulate being a spontaneous spellcaster, but the item still won't activate unless you had used the right level spell slot already that day.

you sure we can't emulate that? Or maybe there's another memento magica item somewhere. I'm off to scour the magic item compendium!

EDIT: curses, the item has the same use clause!

[Runestar]

UMD would let you use the runestaff, but unless your rogue actually has spell slots to power it, he would be unable to use the runestaff at all. Similarly, "faking" a spell slot to sacrifice is not one of the uses of UMD. You are merely treated as having that class feature for purposes of interacting with said item, you don't actually have any to burn.

[Zaq]

Hmm. I wonder if a divine caster could use UMD to convince the runestaff that they are an arcane caster and that the spell slots they are sacrificing are actually arcane rather than divine? Probably not, but it'd be cool if they could.

[Jack_Simth]

Only if you're Hawkmoon.

No, seriously, at-will spell-like abilities requiring nothing but a skill check is way unbalanced. Shouldn't be allowed.

It wouldn't be at-will anyway, nor would it be spell-like; runestaffs are limited to 2-3 times per day per spell, and are cast as the spells (requiring verbal, material, XP, and focus components as appropriate, although somatic ones are handled by manipulating the staff itself).