Tome of Battle Gish builds?

[Wilhelm Scream]

So I have a player who definitely wants to use Tome of Battle in my current campaign, but he'd also like to maybe have some kind of spellcasting ability. He's not hell-bent on the spellcasting, but I know he'd like it if can be done.

His character is starting at 3rd level, progressing quickly to 5th, and I don't imagine this game will get far past 10th if that. Pretty much all books are allowed, I'm just saying no on cheese if it shows up.

Any ideas?

p.s. I just remembered there are builds that mix Bard and Warblade. Any tips on that?

Thanks in advance.

[mabriss lethe]

the two most likely candidates are Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator.

They're both pretty standard entry for a standard Arcane or Divine gish (respectively)

The character could also simply go swordsage and specialize in the more supernatural maneuvers and give them some "magic" window dressing.

[IonDragon]

There are only like 3 base classes in ToB that I can think of. Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage. I have been told Swordsage is like the Wizard of ToB classes and feels a lot like spellcasting. Otherwise Warblade will be his best bet because of 1:1 BAB, though generally I recommend against gestalt Caster//Dedicated Melee. Theoretically, if he is going to direct damage output he could take his Weapon Focus ability in Ray and fill up on Orb of ______ spells, but again, taking 3-10 levels in a class just for Weapon Focus makes me go WHY OH WHY DID YOU DO THIS YOU FOOL

Don't forget about MAD and action economy. Gestalting radically different classes means you'll need just about every stat. Therefore, you'll suck at just about everything and not be really good at anything.

TL;DR: Swordsage feels like a caster. Gestalt Swordsage//Warblade for tons of maneuvers, else do a non-ToB Gish Gestalt.

[Escheton]

warblade2/wizard3/Jade phoenix mage rest would prolly be best.

its solid, lotta options.
If he is an elf he could go wizard1 elf paragon 3 for some neat stuff and better hit die on wizardcasterlvls

[Coidzor]

Well, the casting side will count for half of an initiator level, so it's likely that the character will be book ended, something like, ToB 1/Wiz4/ ToB+1/PrC X...ish. This in order to get better stances/maneuvers/wossname than just going Warblade 2/Wizard 3/PrC 1 or something like that.

[IonDragon]

Whoops, was thinking Gestalt this whole time :x

Probably because of the other Gish thread. My bad. Definitely Warblad 2, Wizard 3, JPM. Good cookie cutter Gish build. Take 3 Wizard first so you're not mixing starting off so low on the power curve.

[Andion Isurand]

Even when going full wizard, I enjoy using the varient wizard in UA that gets bonus fighter feats instead of bonus caster feats... so I can take Martial Study feat from ToB (instead of Scribe Scroll) to get a Desert Wind manuver and permanent access to Tumble as a class skill... which I find useful.

[Wings of Peace]

If he wants to gish I'm going to be the devil's advocate and say he should go Initiator/Ur-Priest/RKV. My logic being he can qualify for RKV fast enough that way that his gishing power could be reasonably developed by 10.

[oxinabox]

Jade pheonix mage is cool.
He is my "Magic is For Buffing" Gish.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126396 (post 6)
And is ready to keep advancing Jade Pheoxix Mage, from now on wards (though, to maintain CL, swapping back for more.

It is not really TOB, he really is a warrior wizard, who just buffs hisself with swift actions (preferably), and then smashs things with power attack.
He does have manovers, though.
And he is minimal MAD, STR>CON>INT. iirc

[Andion Isurand]

If you're a sorcerer of chaotic alignment, a one level dip of Battledancer from the Dragon Compendium will add Charisma to your unarmored AC.

d8 HD, high BAB, good reflex, 4+int skills... along with improved unarmed strike and damage (but no flurry)...

[Wings of Peace]

The build that mixes Bard and Warblade is called Song of the White Raven. It uses Bard and Warblade levels to determine bonus damage from the bards Dragonfire Inspiration feat.

[Wilhelm Scream]

That's what I was thinking of! What book is Dragonfire Inspiration in?

(I also don't know how I forgot about Jade Phoenix Mage. I don't know how.)

[Keld Denar]

DFI is in Dragon Magic. It requires the Dragonblooded Subtype, which you can get by being a Dragonblooded race, detailed in the same book.

Typical Bardblade builds are 4/16 Bard/Warblade respectively. 19/20 BAB, a couple of 1st level spell slots for Inspirational Boost, and hits level 5 ready to take 2nd level manevuers. Feats are a little short, even if you go for default fire DFI. If you want any other flavor damage, you need to sink another 2 feats for Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage, also in Dragon Magic. Its also highly recommended to invest in the TWF feat tree, as more attacks = more damage, its geometic.

[gorfnab]

Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8 - 9th level spells, 17 BAB, IL 16 - definitely a gish, Song of the White Raven can be used with Crusader as well, works great with Dragonfire Inspiration, just pump your Inspire Courage with some of the tricks mentioned here: Bard Inspire Courage Optimization

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If he wants to gish I'm going to be the devil's advocate and say he should go Initiator/Ur-Priest/RKV. My logic being he can qualify for RKV fast enough that way that his gishing power could be reasonably developed by 10.

Minor hitch: RKV requires Wee Jas to be your deity, which doesn't mix very well with Ur Priest. Luckily for us the DM is the OP, so we can recommend a change in that particular flavor-requirement of RKV and allow the Ur Priest entry, but he might not be so happy about an evil character who steals spells from the gods in the first place.

Otherwise I agree that this is the best early-level option.

[Wings of Peace]

Minor hitch: RKV requires Wee Jas to be your deity, which doesn't mix very well with Ur Priest. Luckily for us the DM is the OP, so we can recommend a change in that particular flavor-requirement of RKV and allow the Ur Priest entry, but he might not be so happy about an evil character who steals spells from the gods in the first place.

Otherwise I agree that this is the best early-level option.

As a point of flavor you are right, if the DM is very by the mechanics then it could always also be pointed out that the prequisites of entering Ur-Priest do not state that they cannot be worshipping a deity, which is all the RKV requires. Not that you be a Cleric of Wee Jas.

Edit: Perhaps the Ur-Priest is so talented in fact that he has decieved Wee Jas into percieving him as a cleric allowing him to learn the secrets and powers of the prestige class?

[Greenish]

Good ol' Cleric4/Crusader1/RKV (as much as needed) is pretty decent.

[Dhavaer]

I'm fond of Warblade/Hexblade/Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant Champion, if you don't might getting spells late and making spellcheck very angry.

[Amphetryon]

A fun build, rarely discussed: Dread Necromancer 5/Crusader 1/JPM 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Crusader +1. DN 5 gets the Fear Aura, allowing for better stacking of debuffing effects, like those from Iron Guard's Glare and Sickening Grasp.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like alternateing levels of warblade and psion. You loose out by the end of the game, but there are lots of really good synergies between the classes. You are looking for greater psionic weapon and the feat that lets you regain your focus as a move action. Nothing says I break that door at level 6 than a psionic weapon mountain hammer. Damage of +4d6, ignoreing DR and hardness.

There is great Int synergy, boost your armor, atributes, and size with powers. Self healing later in the game. No ASF for armor. Concentration is always a class skill, so work with dimond mind, and Iorn Heart becuse Iorn Heart is awsome.

Talk to your DM. See if he will let you reflavor and alter JPM for psionics. That would be awsome.

[Eldariel]

Good ol' Cleric4/Crusader1/RKV (as much as needed) is pretty decent.

"Pretty decent"? Try "Just About The Best Non-Fullcaster You Can Make". RKV is called Ruby Knight Windicator for a reason. And getting 9th level spells and 8th level maneuvers is some good.


That said, yeah, outside those you'll want Homebrew. I've got my Ephemeral Blade for Psionic/ToB for example. Lots of similar Homebrew exists for various combinations the book doesn't work for (it's very, very limited in that regard).

[Keld Denar]

This issue is that the OP's restrictions are so limiting that you can't really "build" anything. I'd go with a gish-in-a-box like Duskblade, Battle Sorcerer (shudder) or PsyWar, straight classed 1 to 20. Thats the simplest you can really "build" with your restrictions. Most gish builds involve 2 base classes (one martial, one caster) and typically 2-4 PrCs which may involve one or more levels in Jade Phoenix Mage, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword, Swiftblade, Sacred Exorcist, Sublime Chord, etc. For instance, the classic "Sorcadin" build is: Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChamp5/SacredExorcist8. Ends with 18th level Sorcerer casting and 16/20 BAB. Unfortunately, it does have most of its levels in one class, and it doesn't use 3 or fewer classes.

So yea, the best you could do is one of the pre-fabricated gish classes listed above. They aren't bad, but they aren't quite a strong as some of the other builds presented here.

[Fax Celestis]

I prefer Swordsage 2/Cleric 3/RKV 10 over Crusader.