[3.5] Power Attack for non-chargers

[Choco]

As the title says, is there any way to properly use power attack against a CR-appropriate enemy? An uber high STR score and a +5 weapon enhancement bonus don't really make up for lost BAB at higher levels, so if you pump too much into power attack you will go from an almost guaranteed hit to an almost guaranteed miss.

So then, how would a non-charging melee character make effective use of power attack?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

(Extended/Persistent) Wraithstrike and/or (Quickened) True Strike.

[Ashiel]

A high level fighter should, in theory, possess the following.

A good to-hit ability (such as strength).
A good BAB (warriors have the best).
A good weapon (such as a +3 sword).

Now assuming 15th level, you can probably swing a 24 strength without too much effort (15 base + 3 from leveling + 4 from bull's strength or magic items + 2 inherent modifier from an Efreeti or tome).

You've got a +15 to hit from your base attack, a +3 from your weapon, and +7 from your strength, so a +25 total; assuming no other buffs, feats, or whatever. For our example, let's use a Horned Devil as our guinea pig; since he's got a fairly solid AC for his CR (which is a little higher than our 15th level fighter); in this case 35.

It seems that you can hit this devil on a roll of 10 (+25); so you've got a 55% chance to hit him. Every -1 you take is effectively -5% to this chance; but you'll be adding only +2 to the damage, so this is probably not a good idea by default; as you'll quickly notice your damage per round to be dropping since 2d6+10 every round is better than 2d6+16 every other round.

However, you're also unbuffed (beyond your typical strength buff), and you're not applying situational buffs, such as feats or flanking; or lowering your opponent's armor class. This is where the "teamwork" thing comes in.

You and your allies can be blessed, aided, the target of Aid-Another, hasted, your enemies can be slowed, blinded, flat footed, and so forth. Such things increase your % to hit dramatically. For example, merely being under the effect of a bless, and haste, you have improved your hit % from 55% to 65%. If your wizard friend summons 1d4+1 celestial dogs to follow you around using Aid-Another, then that can be up to +6 (+30%), while your opponent can be entangled (+10%), and now you're beginning to get some excess.

At this point, Power Attack becomes a finishing move. You've gone from a 55% chance of hitting your opponent, to a 105% chance of hitting; but your to-hit caps at 95% (you can always roll a 1); so now you've got excess accuracy; so let's start sinking some into your attacks.

At this point, you could sink up to -10 BAB into power attack (for +20 damage per hit) and still have the same 55% chance to hit your opponent; or you could just play it safe and sink 5 points into that, giving a +10 damage per hit, but you've got an 80% chance to hit.

That Being Said...
If you can get a full-attack off, you may be better off doing that with all the extra accuracy. With +10 points worth of extra accuracy, your iterative attacks can benefit exceptionally well. Your 2nd iterative attack would now have a 75% chance to hit, and your 3rd attack would have the same 55% you started with; which means you might be better off going with 2d6+10 * 3 instead.

Personally, I prefer Pathfinder's power attack. At first it seemed odd, but upon further consideration it's pretty nice. At 20th level, a fighter declaring Power Attack takes a -6 to hit, and adds +18 to damage per swing with a 2 hander; and y'know that's a pretty good conversion rate.

Edit: The less long-winded way would be to say, when you've got a lot of +hit modifiers from your friends, flanking, or enemies being hosed with status conditions, then you can start ripping with some power attack. Alternatively; Power Attack + Coup De Grace = Pretty much insta-dead.

[Aroka]

Power Attack Calculator

The average damage (damage * probability of hitting) is what matters. There's a break-off point where increasing Power Attack reduces average damage, but it depends on the target AC, obviously.

[Keld Denar]

To Hit is not that hard to boost. Someone compiled a pretty extensive list. Simple things like Law or Chaos Devotion give a pretty sizable, scaling bonus to hit and having a Bard in your party makes it really easy to boost To Hit by a sizable amount. I use Law Devotion on my Sorcadin and he does pretty good in the damage department. You can also Polymorph into something with a decent Str (trolls are common). There is an item called Armbands of Might which gives you essentially a free point of PA when you PA for 2 or more. Most of my characters use one and then PA for 2-5 points against most targets, unless they prove to be particularly squishy.

[Snake-Aes]

Power Attack Calculator

The average damage (damage * probability of hitting) is what matters. There's a break-off point where increasing Power Attack reduces average damage, but it depends on the target AC, obviously.

This is really important to show to happy PA people. The common ways to personally boost to hit(strength,enhancement to strength, magic weapons) typically increase the value of precision over damage due to the iterative attacks actually hitting and dealing more damage.

Thus, generally speaking, full attacks shouldn't use power attack unless you expect to gain more bonus hit than bonus damage, even with 2h weapons that is noticeable against enemies with above-average AC.

[Optimystik]

(Extended/Persistent) Wraithstrike and/or (Quickened) True Strike.

Alternatively, Deep Impact. (Regain your focus with Hustle to keep full-attacking.)

[Mongoose87]

[QUOTE=Ashiel;8868544
Personally, I prefer Pathfinder's power attack. At first it seemed odd, but upon further consideration it's pretty nice. At 20th level, a fighter declaring Power Attack takes a -6 to hit, and adds +18 to damage per swing with a 2 hander; and y'know that's a pretty good conversion rate.
[/QUOTE]

I think they nerfed it back down to a 2:1 exchange.

[Snake-Aes]

I think they nerfed it back down to a 2:1 exchange.

It's +2 damage, -1 to hit.
Light weapons gain half damage, 2h weapons gain 1,5x damage.

[Person_Man]

So then, how would a non-charging melee character make effective use of power attack?

Power Attack Guide

A non-Charging melee character using Power Attack will almost always deal less damage then a Charging melee character using Power Attack, because the Charging melee character can use Leap Attack, Rhino's Rush, Battle Jump, Spirited Charge, Valorous weapon, etc.

But in most cases, you don't need to deal that much damage. As others have opined, with a decent To-Hit and/or Touch Attacks and/or by denying your enemy his Dex bonus and/or by adding other bonuses (Flanking, higher ground, prone, etc) you shouldn't have a hard time dealing respectable damage. Since you'll have plenty of resources to spend on other melee combos, you should be fine.

[ericgrau]

A large number of magical AB buffs is the typical non-cheesy way. Doesn't reach ubercharger levels, but it's passable for a non-cheesy method.

[Ashiel]

I think they nerfed it back down to a 2:1 exchange.

Power Attack.

You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

This at BAB +20 you take a -6 to add +6 with a light, +12 with a one handed, or +18 with a two handed weapon.

[dextercorvia]

Duskblades use Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike (also quick cast True Strike in a pinch), to boost To-Hit for PA. This is (usually) viable for other gishes as well.

[Runestar]

Just as well - power attack shouldn't be something you can afford to dump your entire bab into and still be capable of hitting as well as before.

[Eldariel]

Depends. As Ericgrau stated, one of the best ways to use Power Attack is to be in a party with a spellcaster or two (or to be a spellcaster or two yourself). On higher levels, the long duration buffs tend to boost you enough that you can afford half a dozen points of Power Attack against many enemies (well, depends on the oppositions' level of AC optimization and any possible Dispels and such, of course; hitting a magic-focused opponent just subjected to Disjunction tends to mean "PA for full").

Generally you should use most of various combat modifiers in PA: Tripping someone makes PAing for 2-4 a very reasonable idea, having someone Flanked should provoke some PA and Charging generally goes hand-in-hand with PA even without Shock Trooper.

Also, Law Devotion & Arcane Strike + Knowledge Devotion [as stated] enable Power Attack really well, some ToB maneuvers (Rabid X Strike, Greater Divine Surge, Emerald Razor) come with (very) notable attack bonuses and convert nicely into Power Attack, and, as stated, Wraithstrike/True Strike make for great PAing. Many other spells too; basically anything that generates Touch Attacks or gives notable attack bonuses.

Also, never forget creatures with naturally poor AC; things like Giants, Purple Worm, Big T and so on tend to be big, stupid and have huge AC penalties so you can use hefty Power Attack against them quite safely.


Core Charger I built at some point was quite able to use Power Attack for 20 efficiently against Balors and Tarrasques on 20 without having access to Shock Trooper (he was a Mounted Charger and thus only one attack counts). He didn't need True Strike either though he was able to cast said spell.