Can Spontaneous Casters metamagic MotAO-pool-spells?

[zugschef]

The title of this thread says it all: Can a Sorcerer/MotAO, for instance, apply a metamagic feat he/she possesses to a spell he/she calls from the spellpool?

Thanks in advance.

[Prodan]

I don't see a reason against it.

[Optimystik]

I'm iffy on this - the whole point of Arcane Preparation (which you will need if you want to enter MotAO as a sorcerer) is so that you can apply metamagic to a spell ahead of time. That spell is no longer cast spontaneously, so you should have to apply metamagic to it during preparation (whether you do so in the morning, or later when you draw it from the spellpool.)

However, there are a couple of gaps here:
1) There are no rules around whether a Spellpool spell even can be metamagicked during "preparation," or how that would affect the spell levels you can draw from the Pool.

2) Arcane Preparation allows a Sorcerer to apply metamagic ahead of time, but it doesn't actually prevent them from applying their metamagic the normal way.

So in my very roundabout way, I suppose I'm agreeing with Prodan from a RAW standpoint, though I'm skeptical in terms of RAI.

The one surefire way that I know would work (both RAW and RAI) would be Sudden Metamagic.

[PId6]

The one surefire way that I know would work (both RAW and RAI) would be Sudden Metamagic.

Don't forget Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect.

[zugschef]

Don't forget Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect.

what do you mean?

[PId6]

what do you mean?

They're abilities from the Incantatrix prestige class. Cooperative Metamagic lets you apply metamagic freely to an ally's spell, while Metamagic Effect lets you apply metamagic freely to existing spell effects. Like Sudden Metamagics, both should work with MotAO by RAW and RAI.

[zugschef]

They're abilities from the Incantatrix prestige class. Cooperative Metamagic lets you apply metamagic freely to an ally's spell, while Metamagic Effect lets you apply metamagic freely to existing spell effects. Like Sudden Metamagics, both should work with MotAO by RAW and RAI.

Ah, ok.

Thank you guys for your answers so far, but I hope that some more people share their opinions on the subject. =)

[2xMachina]

Me...

You can call a Metamagic'ed spell from the pool. However, they're more rare, and count as a higher lvl spell.

Or you can apply Metamagic on the fly, but this is a full round action (as normal for metamagic on spontaneous).

[zugschef]

The way I see it, the rules are written very sloppily.

In fact the rules say that you need a free spell slot exactly of the spell's level (which is strange to begin with, because it should be possible to use a higher level spell slot) to call it, and then it is mentioned nowhere that you actually use the spell slot to cast the spell. The rules just say that you have the spell in mind, and that it's useable.

And as 2xMachina indicates, the rules do not prevent you (although they don't explicitly allow it either) from calling a metamagicked spell, even if you do not know the corresponding feat.

It's really up to the DM, I guess.

[Cyrion]

I would tend to allow characters to apply only metamagic feats they know the spells. Calling the original spell from the spell pool counts as the spell's base level in terms of your allotment of spellpool spells per day, but the slot you have to expend depends on the metamagic you apply. I'd also start by letting the sorc apply the metamagic in whatever way the character is built- it's a full-round spell unless they're using rapid metamagic, sudden metamagic, etc. If that were a problem due to abuse, I'd have something mystical happen to the spellpool that deals with the problem.

[dobu]

The wording is a bit vague. It says nothing about metamagic at all. Motao is suited for casters that prepare their spells, so I think, the spells come in form of pre-prepared packages and can't be modified afterwards.

But again: This is just an extrapolation of the prereqs. Is there some official ruling about this anyway?

[Optimystik]

The wording is a bit vague. It says nothing about metamagic at all. Motao is suited for casters that prepare their spells, so I think, the spells come in form of pre-prepared packages and can't be modified afterwards.

But again: This is just an extrapolation of the prereqs. Is there some official ruling about this anyway?

Not that I am aware. I would rule the following:

1) You may call metamagicked spells from the Spellpool provided that you possess the necessary feat. Such a spell would use its modified spell level. (i.e. calling an extended 3rd-level spell is equivalent to calling a 4th-level spell.)

2) You may call unmodified spells from the pool as normal, and metamagic them externally. (e.g. Sudden Metamagic, Cooperative Metamagic, Vestige Metamagic.)

3) As spontaneous MotAOs only have one spell slot (via Arcane Preparation) they may only ever call one spell from the pool. This same slot must be used to repay their Spelldebt later.

4) Spontaneous casters may not use their innate ability to apply metamagic "on the fly" to a spell prepared by Arcane Preparation. (This includes a spell obtained via the Spellpool.)

[dextercorvia]

Not that I am aware. I would rule the following:


3) As spontaneous MotAOs only have one spell slot (via Arcane Preparation) they may only ever call one spell from the pool. This same slot must be used to repay their Spelldebt later.

Where are you getting this?

Benefit: Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells you know...

Emphasis Mine.

Also, if you can cast spells from scrolls into the spellpool, I rather doubt it cares if you are using spontaneous vs. prepared slots.

IIRC, there is a PrC in FR that allows spontaneous casters to use the Spellpool. The PrC is almost identical to MoTAO in every other way, even the 750 gp entry fee. (I'm thinking Guild Mage of Waterdeep, but I can't remember for sure.)

[Optimystik]

Emphasis Mine.

Ah, mea culpa.

Also, if you can cast spells from scrolls into the spellpool, I rather doubt it cares if you are using spontaneous vs. prepared slots.

You can't - you must prepare the required number of slots and then repay your debt by emptying them.

Hyperconscious has a Psionic version - the Colorless Adept, who gets access to new powers by seeding (like a torrent download).

[dextercorvia]

You can't - you must prepare the required number of slots and then repay your debt by emptying them.

My mistake, I had looked it up online and found a 'homebrew' that was really close to the original. I would agree that you could only use prepared slots, but that isn't such a big deal for a spontaneous caster, who can use Versatile Spellcaster to maintain, er, versatility, while having plenty of prepared slots to use the Spell Pool.

[zugschef]

since the rules are holey in this respect, would you agree that it was intended that casting a called spell uses up an appropriate spellslot and that this spellslot does not need to be a prepaired slot?

Repaying the debt however needs to be done via prepared spells (that's what a spontaneous caster needs arcane preparation for).

as regards metamagic and spellpool-spells, i'd say that there are probably 2 viable ways to handle this subject (if i were the dm):

1. you cannot call metamagicked spells from the spellpool. as an exception to this rule all spells in the spellpool can be cast as cooperative spells. apart from that, called spells can only be metamagicked by rods or a similar mechanic (like sudden metamagic).

or

2. you cannot call metamagicked spells from the spellpool. a wizard, however, may prepare a spellslot with a metamagic feat and then cast a called spell with this slot which then provides the metamagic effect. mialee, for example, could prepare a 5th level spellslot with the quicken spell feat. when she calls true strike, for instance, from the spellpool, she could cast true strike quickened with this spellslot. spontaneous casters can use their metamagic feats with called spells as normal.