Evil Cleric Capabilities in Pathfinder or in general?

[Arillius]

Alright, so my neutral cleric in an evil party finally turned evil, and through chat a few days later my DM mentioned something about the cool things evil clerics can do, and when I asked spell wise his response was, "sorta." He wants me to find out on my own, but I've scoured the pathfinder books and can't find anything. Anyone else know what he might have been talking about?

[Hurlbut]

Channel Negative Energy for one. An AoE that harm living things and heal undead servitors under your party's control?

[Arillius]

Yeah, knew about that one and have been planning for it and the eventual gaining of animate dead. He also knows I know because the moment he forced me to change m cleric to Evil I channeled negative energy to whoop some enemies surrounding us. I think it might be something deeper.

[Hurlbut]

Well I dunno, I rarely play a cleric and I know normally you couldn't cast a spell opposed your alignment.

[edited] My friend mentioned these; "Finger of death. Raising and controlling the Undead"

[Nero24200]

They don't really get that much over good clerics. Alot of cleric spells are pretty much the same, but affects different alignments (Holy and Unholy Word, for instance).

In PF they have channel energy, but that's not really that great. It deals 1D6 per two levels which also hurts any non-undead allies as well. For the most part you'd be better off casting a spell or wading intot he thick of it with a few buffs up. Channel energy was pretty much just made so good clerics could have an additional means of healing outwith combat.

[Hurlbut]

In PF they have channel energy, but that's not really that great. It deals 1D6 per two levels which also hurts any non-undead allies as well. For the most part you'd be better off casting a spell or wading intot he thick of it with a few buffs up. Channel energy was pretty much just made so good clerics could have an additional means of healing outwith combat.

That's what Selective Channeling is for. Beside, the good cleric have the same problem as the evil one; his postive channel affect *all* living beings, including their opponents.

So the good cleric can heal his allies/harm the undead but also heal any other opponent (living) in the area. While the evil cleric can harm his opponents/heal the undead but also harm any of his allies (living) in the area.

You can see that the drawback isn't exclusive to the evil cleric's channeling.

[Nero24200]

That's what Selective Channeling is for. Beside, the good cleric have the same problem as the evil one; his postive channel affect *all* living beings, including their opponents.

Fighting undead opponents with living allies is alot more common than fighting living creatures with only undead allies. I doubt I'd ever see a PC with just undead allies.

You can see that the drawback isn't exclusive to the evil cleric's channeling.

Well..it kinda is. The writers even said that the main reason they implemented Channel Energy was to give the cleric more healing power.

Evil clerics have some good advantages, but channel energy ain't one of them.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, in the final version of Pathfinder, you can only heal OR harm ,you can't do both at once. So if your trying heal your undead buddies, you can't harm the living with that particular burst. Visa the versa for positive channellers.

[Optimystik]

An excellent ACF for evil clerics is Divine Magician from Complete Mage - trade a domain for Wizard spells from the Abjuration, Divination or Necromancy schools. Naturally, you'll be wanting the latter, which will grant you access to great (and morally questionable) offensive spells like Enervation and Avasculate.

[Arillius]

nero, I can selectively channel my entire party out every time I channel negative, which I can do 10 times a day. So 10 times a day I can channel 3d6 negative energy on enemies, and with the dmm I have its usually at least 3 of them. Its a great evil spell.

found out what he was talking about to. Feats for evil clerics. Like command undead. Couldn't find any others.

[Nero24200]

nero, I can selectively channel my entire party out every time I channel negative, which I can do 10 times a day. So 10 times a day I can channel 3d6 negative energy on enemies, and with the dmm I have its usually at least 3 of them. Its a great evil spell.

Well it relies heavily on your charisma - since you can only "avoid" a number of creatures equal to your charisma modifier. So it not only provides a feat tax, but also a degree of MAD to the cleric.

Compare the ability to casting a spell instead. Or attacking in combat under the effects of several Personal buffs. 3D6 damage isn't that great when wizards at the same level are tossing out fireballs that deal 5D6 (and direct damage isn't even considered a wizard's best ability either).

[Hurlbut]

Well it relies heavily on your charisma - since you can only "avoid" a number of creatures equal to your charisma modifier. So it not only provides a feat tax, but also a degree of MAD to the cleric.

Compare the ability to casting a spell instead. Or attacking in combat under the effects of several Personal buffs. 3D6 damage isn't that great when wizards at the same level are tossing out fireballs that deal 5D6 (and direct damage isn't even considered a wizard's best ability either).

Except unless you fill out all of the 3rd spell level slots (which is ONE slot plus additional slots for having a high Int) for 5th level, you usually doesn't cast Fireball more than once or twice a day. Airillius can do this 10 times a day. The wizard have to make sure his AoE damage spells doesn't hit his allies

A high Charisma improves his social skills, especially to coerce someone into doing something for him as well increasing the Will Save DC for Command Undead

[Arillius]

Back to the topic at hand. Anyone know what other evil feats there might be in pathfinder aside from command undead?

Edited: Pretty much what Hurlbut said.

[Nero24200]

Except unless you fill out all of the spell slots for 5th spell level, you usually doesn't cast Fireball more than once or twice a day. Airillius can do this 10 times a day. The wizard have to make sure his AoE damage spells doesn't hit his allies

I don't see how giving up feats and boosting another stat makes it more reliable than wizards spells. And unless you sink a bunch of other feat slots on Extra Channeling I don't see how he's getting 10 a day.

A high Charisma improves his social skills, especially to coerce someone into doing something for him as well increasing the Will Save DC for Command Undead

If it's social skills your wanting the cleric is the wrong class. And well..if you're trying to tell me it's okay because "Charisma is a good stat to have" then well...I don't think anything I can say will convince you.

[Hurlbut]

*Ahem* Having a high Cha increase the number of times you can channel a day.
Cleric do have Diplomacy, so he can sweet talk someone into doing something for him. It also increase the Will Save DC to halve damage from the channeling when used to harm.

And did you not see the rest of the post? Charisma increase the Will Save DC the Undead have to beat to prevent falling under the cleric's control through Command Undead.

[Nero24200]

*Ahem* Having a high Cha increase the number of times you can channel a day.

And? In the example you gave involving 3D6 channel energy damage the cleric couldn't have been any higher level than 5th or 6th level. At that level you can't really have a cleric with a Charisma mod higher than roughly +5. That's about 8 uses a day.

Cleric do have Diplomacy, so he can sweet talk someone into doing something for him.

Right, while he's doing that the arcane casters can toss around Dominate spells and then get the target to follow them into combat after sweet talking them.

And did you not see the rest of the post? Charisma increase the Will Save DC the Undead have to beat to prevent falling under the cleric's control through Command Undead.

And? If I argue that channel energy isn't that great an ability, how does telling me that charisma is a great stat for it going to convince me? Did you read my post commenting about feat taxes and MAD?

[Ashiel]

On a slightly related note; I ran a Red Hand of Doom game briefly with a party (4 players), all playing clerics who could channel negative energy; all who animated the undead, and all who had the Tomb Tainted Soul feat.

Long story short; that group had stupid amounts of staying power. The synergy they shared was nearly unstoppable.

[Ravens_cry]

On a slightly related note; I ran a Red Hand of Doom game briefly with a party (4 players), all playing clerics who could channel negative energy; all who animated the undead, and all who had the Tomb Tainted Soul feat.

Long story short; that group had stupid amounts of staying power. The synergy they shared was nearly unstoppable.

Go, Team (Evil) Cleric!

[dextercorvia]

Except unless you fill out all of the 3rd spell level slots (which is ONE slot plus additional slots for having a high Int) for 5th level, you usually doesn't cast Fireball more than once or twice a day. Airillius can do this 10 times a day. The wizard have to make sure his AoE damage spells doesn't hit his allies

A high Charisma improves his social skills, especially to coerce someone into doing something for him as well increasing the Will Save DC for Command Undead

If we are throwing feats around, a 3rd level Kineticist can do 3d6 to up to 5 enemies 14 times a day, and is Int SAD. By 5th the damage is at 5d6, and at 6th 6d6, but you get a 15th use. That's not even the best use of all those tasty PP. I wouldn't exactly consider a weaker ability to be a major positive for the Evil Cleric.

[Ashiel]

Go, Team (Evil) Cleric!

Yeah, it was pretty much like that. At 5th level, each of them had 20 HD worth of undead; and they were humans so they had Tomb Tainted Soul, as well as Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bonus, Destruction Retribution; so all their undead were pretty bank; and then exploded when they died (healing them of course); and then each of them could at any moment spontaneously cast an inflict spell, or drop an AoE 2d6 negative energy into the area; which if they all channeled during the same turn was a nice hefty 8d6 at 5th level; which also harmed the hobgoblins and other creatures they commonly fought during the campaign.

Couple with the fact they were all decent warriors on top of it; it was almost like watching a team of Death Knights (the Warcraft 3 version) storming the hobgoblin army in the campaign. It was actually pretty sweet. Even better was when they got Shield Other and cast it on themselves, so they all split damage evenly amongst each other; so it became harder and harder for enemies to focus-fire a single one of them down.

Everything was usable loot for them as well. Mundane equipment was looted and given to their undead. If they couldn't use the equipment (such as non-proficiencies), they'd slap 'em on their undead. They encounter a hydra, manticore, group of wolf riders? Undead with teeth.

They could cast summon undead III and summon a huge red-dragon skeleton as well; so that was pretty nasty. Really, these guys were a powerful team; and interestingly worked wonders in large combats; and could carry a huge amount of gear (via untiring warbeasts with enhanced strength scores). They later picked up Necromantic Presence and Necropotence and gave all undead in their vicinity a +2 to hit and damage; so they were kind of like bards too.

Man, I wish I could GM for a group like that again.

[Arillius]

That's frickin awesome. I'm trying to convince my Dm to let me have tomb-tainted soul feat. Hoping he says yes.

[Ashram]

My favorite combo for PF evil clerics is the Negative Energy Master, which is a (Typically idealistic in worship) (Un)holy Warrior variant, which removes your domains (A bit of a gutpunch for PF clerics, who get nice abilities) in return for d10 HD and full BAB (And if you really wanna haggle with the DM for flavor, free heavy armor proficiency). Add in Selective Channeling, an Extra Channel if you think you're lacking in that department, Improved Channel to pump up the save DC of your channel by 2, and take Channel Smite. Supplement this with Command Undead, possibly Spell Focus: Necromancy, and possibly Smiting Spell from PHB II if your DM allows it, which lets you channel spells (Particularly negative energy spells) into your weapon for +1 level adjustment.

[Ravens_cry]

I am pretty sure the Holy Warrior cleric gets heavy armour proficiency. Unless they errated that.

[Paul H]

Hi

Sorry - Holy Warriors don't gain Hvy Armour.

Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with
her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack
bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die
becomes a d10.

and.....

Class Abilities: Some clerics think of themselves more
as holy warriors than proselytizers or shepherds. For these
clerics, the ability to fight trumps all
other concerns. Taking the above ability
requires a cleric to give up both of
her domains, including her
domain powers.

And the Evil Domain & powers (PF Pg 44) are not too shabby.

Cheers
Paul H