Deathless Frenzy problem

[Daelen]

I am sure this has been brought up by someone before, but something interesting has caught my attention. I built a Warforged Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker (3.5), because well, its a beautiful class. Then it was brought to my attention that one of the staples of the FB doesn't work with Warforged. What do you all think?

The ability in question is, of course, Deathless Frenzy. The Warforged is never truly treated as Dying... they go Inert. Does this affect the Deathless Frenzy ability, making it obselete? The people I play with seem to think so, but I'd like another opinion.

[Marriclay]

It would work on a warforged the same way it would anybody else. Unconscious and Inert mean the same thing in game, and Warforged still die, as they are living, if magically mechanical, beings.

Spoilered for being off topic

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My suggestion is to take Warforged Juggernaut after you're done with frenzied berserker. A couple levels in that will make you immune to the nonlethal damage that frenzied berserker does to you, I believe

[drengnikrafe]

The suggestion that because something has a different name (despite being the same thing mechanically) makes it comepletely unlike it's similar other form is silly. Some rules weren't written with other rules in mind. In order to make them work together properly, you have to slightly alter things here and there. IMO it should work just fine.

[Hurlbut]

Hm a berserking 'robot'

[Daelen]

It would work on a warforged the same way it would anybody else. Unconscious and Inert mean the same thing in game, and Warforged still die, as they are living, if magically mechanical, beings.

Spoilered for being off topic

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My suggestion is to take Warforged Juggernaut after you're done with frenzied berserker. A couple levels in that will make you immune to the nonlethal damage that frenzied berserker does to you, I believe

As to your spoiler, that's exactly what I did. Warforged Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Frenzied Berserker 10. It was a 20th level build so the leveling up didn't matter, though if it did I think I'd still do it the same way for concept. He was a Warforged who was taken in by the Lord Of Blades, beaten down and turned into a mindless servant until he rediscovered his inner rage. Problem was, after that it wasn't controllable anymore.


The problem, the original problem, lies in the fact that they word it that Warforged respond differently to being reduced to 0 hit points.

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A warforged responds slightly differently from
other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points.
A warforged with 0 hit points is disabled, just like a
living creature. He can only take a single move action
or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity
does not risk further injury. When his hit points
are less than 0 and greater than –10, a warforged is
inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot
perform any actions. However, an inert warforged
does not lose additional hit points unless more
damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that
is stable.

[Marriclay]

essentially it just means you're auto stabilized, the way I see it. in every other respect it's just like a normal situation

[Daelen]

How could one argue these points (which I all agree with, by the way), strictly RAW? The people this came up with are the biggest rules lawyers I've ever seen, and I'd need a direct ruling and not "well, these guys said..."

[Snake-Aes]

If raw doesn't say anything, then use common sense. The whole point of the Undying Rage thing is that you really angry yourself into action even if you were supposed to be completely dead. Warforged are living, and do can get angry. I'd let it work.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen. Ultimatly they are right/smegheads.

[Daelen]

See, I would "let" it happen too. But that is not how these guys work. The character was used as a mini-BBEG in a campaign, and my friend who ran the game said that they informed him that the character should have been down as soon as he hit negative numbers, because he's never considered as "dying" and therefore Deathless Frenzy never applies.

[Boci]

Point out the implications of this rule. If you are never dying, you are not a valid target for spells that target dying creatures or their effect relates to how many of them are in the area.

[TheLaughingLich]

Well, if you really want a lawyerly answer...

A warforged responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points.

In the most literal reading, this does not mean a warforged responds differently when reduced below 0 hitpoints. Therefore, a warforged is both Dying and Inert, although as specified in the condition, being Inert means that he does not lose additional hit points from being Dying.

However...

When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than -10, a warforged is inert.

Thus, if your hitpoints fall to -10 or below, you are no longer Inert. You are merely Dying, and Deathless Frenzy allows you to "fight normally" in this circumstance. You merely need to ensure you don't fall into the -1 to -9 window.

EDIT: oops, you're not Dying at or below -10 either, amusingly enough. You're entirely in the clear.

[Snake-Aes]

See, I would "let" it happen too. But that is not how these guys work. The character was used as a mini-BBEG in a campaign, and my friend who ran the game said that they informed him that the character should have been down as soon as he hit negative numbers, because he's never considered as "dying" and therefore Deathless Frenzy never applies.

By their logic, if you succeed on a heal check against a negative frenzy barbarian, he instantly dies because he went from Dying to Stable. Warforged Inert state is just an auto stabilized Dying stat. If they really want to be that pedantic, shove a pineapple on their butts.

[Fortuna]

See, I would "let" it happen too. But that is not how these guys work. The character was used as a mini-BBEG in a campaign, and my friend who ran the game said that they informed him that the character should have been down as soon as he hit negative numbers, because he's never considered as "dying" and therefore Deathless Frenzy never applies.

If he's a BBEG, then unless the players in question are stepping waaay out of line there should be no problem with the DM, of all people, applying rule of cool.

That said, I think they do have RAW on their side. I just think that RAI and RAIS win. RAIS: Rules as I say.

[Boci]

See, I would "let" it happen too. But that is not how these guys work. The character was used as a mini-BBEG in a campaign, and my friend who ran the game said that they informed him that the character should have been down as soon as he hit negative numbers, because he's never considered as "dying" and therefore Deathless Frenzy never applies.

Meh, I would just say the min-BBEG was never a warfoged, just a human flavoured to look like a warforge. There problem over, unless you took some warforge exclusive options.

[Daelen]

Meh, I would just say the min-BBEG was never a warfoged, just a human flavoured to look like a warforge. There problem over, unless you took some warforge exclusive options.

Warforged Juggernaut PrC

[Fortuna]

Meh, I would just say the min-BBEG was never a warfoged, just a human flavoured to look like a warforge. There problem over, unless you took some warforge exclusive options.

Warforged Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Frenzied Berserker 10.

Unless I'm missing something?

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Theodoxus]

You posted the warforged statblock for neg hitpoints, can you post a summary of the Deathless Frenzy for comparison? Does it state "unconscious" or "negative hitpoints" or "dying" or what? Most of the warforged writeup is fluff, which shouldn't affect crunch other than window dressing.

Only if the Deathless Frenzy specifically states it works when the character is not stabilized, i.e. is taking additional damage when unconscious (or inert, in the WF case) would it exclude you from accessing the ability. (Though I would allow something like a bleed effect to allow it to work.)

At any rate, being inert is just as good as dying - a warforged would remain in that state indefinitely without either further damage or healing.

Can't really comment further without knowing the exact wording on the ability.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

From the Living Construct entry at the back of MM3, with the relevant portion bolded:

A living construct responds slightly differently from
other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A
living construct with 0 hit points is disabled, just like a
living creature. He can only take a single move action or
standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does
not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than
0 and greater than –10, a living construct is inert. He is
unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any
actions. However, an inert living construct does not lose
additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, as
with a living creature that is stable.

And now, the relevant portion from Deathless Frenzy:

...As long as her frenzy continues, she is not treated as disabled at 0 hit points, nor is she treated as dying at -1 to -9 hit points. Even if reduced to -10 hit points, she continues to fight on until her frenzy ends....

Note that it makes absolutely no mention of the 'dead' condition, it simply says that when reduced to -10 hit points you continue to fight on until the frenzy ends. Continuing to fight on would supersede both the 'dead' condition that a living creature would normally suffer, as well as the 'inert' condition that a warforged would succumb to. A living creature would be unconscious and dying at -1 to -9 HP, whereas a warforged is 'inert' since they're immune to unconsciousness at that range, which is mechanically identical to what affects a living character. You could say that if a warforged in a frenzy is reduced to between -1 to -9 hp he's still inert, but if reduced to -10 or lower he continues to fight on, but that would be silly. Mechanically, a warforged would gain the exact same benefit from Deathless Frenzy as any other type of living creature.

[Boci]

Warforged Juggernaut PrC

Could still have worked. I am amused at the idea of a warforged juggernaut, which you tell your players is actually just a mechanically augmented human flavoured as a Warforged Juggernaut.

[Daelen]

You posted the warforged statblock for neg hitpoints, can you post a summary of the Deathless Frenzy for comparison? Does it state "unconscious" or "negative hitpoints" or "dying" or what? Most of the warforged writeup is fluff, which shouldn't affect crunch other than window dressing.

Only if the Deathless Frenzy specifically states it works when the character is not stabilized, i.e. is taking additional damage when unconscious (or inert, in the WF case) would it exclude you from accessing the ability. (Though I would allow something like a bleed effect to allow it to work.)

At any rate, being inert is just as good as dying - a warforged would remain in that state indefinitely without either further damage or healing.

Can't really comment further without knowing the exact wording on the ability.

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Deathless Frenzy (Ex): At 4th level
and higher, a frenzied berserker can
scorn death and unconsciousness
while in a frenzy. As long as her
frenzy continues, she is not treated
as disabled at 0 hit points, nor is
she treated as dying at –1 to –9
hit points. Even if reduced to –10
hit points or less, she continues
to fi ght normally until her frenzy
ends. At that point, the effects of her
wounds apply normally if they have
not been healed. This ability does not
prevent death from massive damage
or from spell effects such as slay living
or disintegrate.

[Khellendross]

From the Living Construct entry at the back of MM3, with the relevant portion bolded:

And now, the relevant portion from Deathless Frenzy:

Note that it makes absolutely no mention of the 'dead' condition, it simply says that when reduced to -10 hit points you continue to fight on until the frenzy ends. Continuing to fight on would supersede both the 'dead' condition that a living creature would normally suffer, as well as the 'inert' condition that a warforged would succumb to. A living creature would be unconscious and dying at -1 to -9 HP, whereas a warforged is 'inert' since they're immune to unconsciousness at that range, which is mechanically identical to what affects a living character. You could say that if a warforged in a frenzy is reduced to between -1 to -9 hp he's still inert, but if reduced to -10 or lower he continues to fight on, but that would be silly. Mechanically, a warforged would gain the exact same benefit from Deathless Frenzy as any other type of living creature.

It's true a Warforged makes great with the deathless frenzy and they aren't tired afterwards. Also if your DM lets you take exalted feats without having to be pure insane good then take the feat that lets you have perfect clarity when raged. Then you won't attack allies and could even cast spells I think.

[Hurlbut]

Hm. Reading on the warforged traits, doesn't it mean that it would be 'destroyed' when its total hitpoints is less than -10?

I mean considering the level the character is at, it's not hard for comparable opponents to knock him down to -11 or more after Deathless Frenzy kicked in. Once the Deathless Frenzy worn off, it's 'dead'.

[Prodan]

And not even a bucket of water can save him.