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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Enchanter wizards everywhere enjoy manipulating many living beings, through charming, hypnosis, or whatever means they research with their mighty arcane powers.

    Yet they all give up when it comes to facing off a mindless creature (such as an undead or a construct, for example). Their arcane might is all for naught, and they just accept it and give up, finding other ways to vanquish their foes instead of manipulating the mind and will to their own purposes.

    Well here's one wizard that is not willing to accept this fact of reality. After all, the entire point of wizardry is to tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

    Behold, a new spell idea (no, it's not fleshed out as an actual spell, just an idea):

    Bestow Awareness

    Why should you give up when the mindless robotic dog starts running after you? Why shouldn't you be able to charm it or hypnotize it? Oh, because it's mindless? Well not anymore.

    Bestow unto a mindless creature self-awareness, thought, and sentience, perhaps even sapience. Then bend it to your will using your now again-useful enchantment magic.

    I don't want to go into the details of how this would work (probably various spells at different tiers in the spell-levels), just to present that it should exist.

    I've considered this for a long time. You can't charm something because it's a mindless automaton? Use magic to make it less mindless.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Defiant; 2010-07-08 at 01:39 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Awaken and its family are pretty high-level.



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    <Flickerdart> So theoretically the master vampire can control three bonused dire weasels, who in turn each control five sub-weasels
    <Flickerdart> The sub-weasels can each control two other sub-weasels
    <Flickerdart> It's like a pyramid scheme, except the payoff is bleeding to death!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Creating consciousness isn't small potatoes dude. It should probably require some xp component.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    There's also the fact that this probably wouldn't change the target's overall creature type, just it's subtype. And immunity to mind-affecting attacks is a function of creature type, since there are plenty of non-mindless undead who still have the same immunities.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Or you could just Fireball it.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Or buff the beatstick types in the group, and have them kill it for you.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Multi-quote

    Quote Originally Posted by Caphi View Post
    Awaken and its family are pretty high-level.
    Usually not used for this purpose (I don't know how it would work), and is divine (not arcane).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Creating consciousness isn't small potatoes dude. It should probably require some xp component.
    Lower/mid-level, maybe it's not creating a consciousness. Just a small part of it. Enough to make the target be afraid, but not full-blown sapient.

    Eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalnawr View Post
    There's also the fact that this probably wouldn't change the target's overall creature type, just it's subtype. And immunity to mind-affecting attacks is a function of creature type, since there are plenty of non-mindless undead who still have the same immunities.
    Simple. Just add a line noting this as an exception.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shpadoinkle View Post
    Or you could just Fireball it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalnawr View Post
    Or buff the beatstick types in the group, and have them kill it for you.
    I'm more upset at the idea of schools of magic being rendered useless, as well as obvious choices in how to do things.

    A game isn't "many options" and "lots of customization" when it is absolutely obvious that the best schools to drop are Enchantment and Evocation, for example.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    I made a 9th level swift action casting spell that stripped a target of mind affecting spell immunity for your next spell no save or SR, and a 6th level save or loose mind immunity for 1 round / caster level.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    I'm more upset at the idea of schools of magic being rendered useless, as well as obvious choices in how to do things.

    A game isn't "many options" and "lots of customization" when it is absolutely obvious that the best schools to drop are Enchantment and Evocation, for example.
    Well, you could always charm/dominate/mindrape/whatever someone else into taking care of them for you. That way you'd still be using your specialization to solve the problem.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    There's also the position that maybe the wizard doesn't need a perfect answer for everything, and that the other classes would like to play once in a while too. I don't mean that to sound condescending or sarcastic, just asserting that it's probably a good thing to not have every combat challenge end when the wizard gets initiative during the first round. They are the last class to need help, and it's good to have a fight that lets the other party members shine. Also, specialization should involve drawbacks like this, otherwise it's extra spells for nothing. Similarly, Blasty McFireMage needs to run into a fire-immune once in a while to be a strategic challenge.

    Unless it's a solo or all-wizard campaign. In that case, go nuts and invent whatever you want.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    An alternate class feature for Enchanters that makes their [Mind-Affecting] spells automatically succeed against anything with Int -- would be invaluable.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    There's also the position that maybe the wizard doesn't need a perfect answer for everything, and that the other classes would like to play once in a while too. I don't mean that to sound condescending or sarcastic, just asserting that it's probably a good thing to not have every combat challenge end when the wizard gets initiative during the first round. They are the last class to need help, and it's good to have a fight that lets the other party members shine. Also, specialization should involve drawbacks like this, otherwise it's extra spells for nothing. Similarly, Blasty McFireMage needs to run into a fire-immune once in a while to be a strategic challenge.
    But blasty McFireMage has searing spell. This isn't about making wizards stronger, its about making enchanters compare a bit more to transmuters and conjurers.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalnawr View Post
    Well, you could always charm/dominate/mindrape/whatever someone else into taking care of them for you. That way you'd still be using your specialization to solve the problem.
    That's missing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    There's also the position that maybe the wizard doesn't need a perfect answer for everything, and that the other classes would like to play once in a while too. I don't mean that to sound condescending or sarcastic, just asserting that it's probably a good thing to not have every combat challenge end when the wizard gets initiative during the first round. They are the last class to need help, and it's good to have a fight that lets the other party members shine.
    You completely missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    An alternate class feature for Enchanters that makes their [Mind-Affecting] spells automatically succeed against anything with Int -- would be invaluable.
    Never suggested an alternate class feature, merely a spell. It would be problematic given that the wizard would have to cast a spell and then cast its enchantment spell (it would effectively bring wizards down a notch), but at least wizards would then have a reason to want Enchantment.

    EDIT: Also note, saves would still apply to both.
    Last edited by Defiant; 2010-07-08 at 02:12 PM.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    I like the idea of a metamagic feat that does this. It's a +3 spell level from Charm Person --> Charm Monster, and a +4 from Dominate Person to Dominate Monster. So, removing immunity to the spell (perhaps giving it a bonus on it's save a la Searing Spell doing half damage) I would peg at a +3. Maybe it could be a +2 metamagic, if it granted a chance to remove the immunity.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    I like the idea of a metamagic feat that does this. It's a +3 spell level from Charm Person --> Charm Monster, and a +4 from Dominate Person to Dominate Monster. So, removing immunity to the spell (perhaps giving it a bonus on it's save a la Searing Spell doing half damage) I would peg at a +3. Maybe it could be a +2 metamagic, if it granted a chance to remove the immunity.
    Hmmm... that might work better actually. And I like the idea of it too. While you're casting your spell, you use your metamagic to first prepare the mind for becoming assailable by this (though failure means you lose the entire spell).

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Because it is a good thing that there are exceptions to its use?
    Don't fireball the magma elemental, dont charm the zombie-sorta thing.
    It makes pure specialisation a bad thing, as it should be.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    Never suggested an alternate class feature, merely a spell. It would be problematic given that the wizard would have to cast a spell and then cast its enchantment spell (it would effectively bring wizards down a notch), but at least wizards would then have a reason to want Enchantment.
    It was just a suggestion. Enchantment is pretty weak overall, regardless of caster, and giving up your bonus spell slots would hurt quite a bit.

    As for your question, there are various forms of Awaken for animals, plants, constructs, and undead that you could use. It seems wildly impractical, though. While dominating an Iron Golem is amazingly sexy, you still run into problems with hordes of undead... or hordes of almost anything else.

    You are better off creating a new spell that specifically stuns Int -- creatures as a way to deal with the problem. Something like the Hypnotic Pattern line of spells, although without the flashy colors.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Maybe I did miss the point, but it really looks like "I'm playing a specialist wizard, arguably the game's most powerful class, but I'd like my favorite school to overcome everything, so that I don't have any of the actual challenges from specialization." Shouldn't drawbacks be actual drawbacks? Enchantment's drawback is that, while overwhelming some things, it doesn't work on everything. It's a bit like arguing for a rogue feat that lets them sneak attack everything that's immune to the ability, except that the wizard in this case doesn't even have to use a feat.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    Maybe I did miss the point, but it really looks like "I'm playing a specialist wizard, arguably the game's most powerful class, but I'd like my favorite school to overcome everything, so that I don't have any of the actual challenges from specialization." Shouldn't drawbacks be actual drawbacks? Enchantment's drawback is that, while overwhelming some things, it doesn't work on everything. It's a bit like arguing for a rogue feat that lets them sneak attack everything that's immune to the ability, except that the wizard in this case doesn't even have to use a feat.
    I think it would be acceptable if enchantment had the following drawbacks:
    1. Few variations between saves. Almost always will.
    2. Few offensive capabilities that aren't save or suck/loose. (Ray of clumsiness is the only thing I can think of that does not have a save)
    3. Needs to invest resources into overcoming mind affecting immunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton View Post
    Don't fireball the magma elemental,.
    Rule 1: Everything burns.
    Rule 2: If something does not burn, consult rule 1 searing spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    Hmmm... that might work better actually. And I like the idea of it too. While you're casting your spell, you use your metamagic to first prepare the mind for becoming assailable by this (though failure means you lose the entire spell).
    There is Song of the Dead. +1 metamagic:

    Mind-Affecting spells prepared with this feat effect Intelligence Undead, but not Mindless Undead, Constructs, or any living creatures of any type. Any spell prepared with this Feat becomes a Necromancy spell.

    Could use that as a starting point.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-07-08 at 02:29 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    There is a prestige class (Dread Witch) that actually lets you bypass fear immunity, so part of it is already there.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escheton View Post
    Because it is a good thing that there are exceptions to its use?
    Don't fireball the magma elemental, dont charm the zombie-sorta thing.
    It makes pure specialisation a bad thing, as it should be.
    Well... maybe we could research a low-level effect mid-level mass version of it...

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    It was just a suggestion. Enchantment is pretty weak overall, regardless of caster, and giving up your bonus spell slots would hurt quite a bit.

    As for your question, there are various forms of Awaken for animals, plants, constructs, and undead that you could use. It seems wildly impractical, though. While dominating an Iron Golem is amazingly sexy, you still run into problems with hordes of undead... or hordes of almost anything else.

    You are better off creating a new spell that specifically stuns Int -- creatures as a way to deal with the problem. Something like the Hypnotic Pattern line of spells, although without the flashy colors.
    Not a bad idea. But I really like the concept of giving a creature self-awareness just so that you can control it

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    Maybe I did miss the point, but it really looks like "I'm playing a specialist wizard, arguably the game's most powerful class, but I'd like my favorite school to overcome everything, so that I don't have any of the actual challenges from specialization." Shouldn't drawbacks be actual drawbacks? Enchantment's drawback is that, while overwhelming some things, it doesn't work on everything. It's a bit like arguing for a rogue feat that lets them sneak attack everything that's immune to the ability, except that the wizard in this case doesn't even have to use a feat.
    Your logic is flawed.

    The current drawbacks to enchantment are irrelevant, since no-one will choose enchantment due to its comparatively weak potency.

    With or without my idea, wizards will dominate the battlefield. This just gives more diversity to the way wizards can work.



    This is like having a system where archery is so much more powerful over everything, and complaining against buffing up melee because "martial characters are already powerful enough". So the world continues to be dominated by archers, and no-one ever picks up a sword.

    Similarly, the D&D world continues to be dominated by transmuters and conjurers, and no-one ever picks up enchantment.

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    Maybe I did miss the point, but it really looks like "I'm playing a specialist wizard, arguably the game's most powerful class, but I'd like my favorite school to overcome everything, so that I don't have any of the actual challenges from specialization." Shouldn't drawbacks be actual drawbacks? Enchantment's drawback is that, while overwhelming some things, it doesn't work on everything. It's a bit like arguing for a rogue feat that lets them sneak attack everything that's immune to the ability, except that the wizard in this case doesn't even have to use a feat.
    Nitpick: Such a feat would not be overpowered by any means, especially not when you're running around with a specialist Wizard.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Nitpick: Such a feat would not be overpowered by any means, especially not when you're running around with a specialist Wizard.
    Yeah. Hell an errata that grated the rogues that as a class feature wouldn't be overpowered. It would be good.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-07-08 at 02:30 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Yeah. Hell an errata that grated the rogues that as a class feature wouldn't be overpowered. It would be good.
    Indeed. I usually give it to my rogues for free or near-free when I DM.

    For example, when the party's weapons become intelligent items, I decided that the rogue's intelligent weapon could figure out where to strike for maximum damage, and thus allow sneak attack on constructs et al.

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    It does seem odd that there's no spell that affects constructs or undead.
    I get that the standard mind control wouldn't work, but as creatures with magical sentience, there should be a spell to take control of that. I'd make new spells, like "hijack construct" (not sure what level) that would work like dominate or charm for constructs, and another for undead. Lets you control them, but now you've either prepared spells that only work against undead/constructs, or you've used up some of your spells known
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrthain View Post
    It does seem odd that there's no spell that affects constructs or undead.
    Command Undead and Control Undead exist, they just are Necro instead of Enchantment
    Last edited by dextercorvia; 2010-07-08 at 02:51 PM.

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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    awaken is lvl 5 druid transmutation(3d6 int) . create undead is lvl 6 necromancy(13 int 14 wis ghouls and ghasts).

    "A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example...
    Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects,"

    So as long as your dm does not say that you're prohibited schools prevent you from creating this effect: limited wish fufills your need.
    Last edited by Bagelz; 2010-07-09 at 12:41 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    But blasty McFireMage has searing spell. This isn't about making wizards stronger, its about making enchanters compare a bit more to transmuters and conjurers.
    Aww, poor widdle enchanter can't use her save-or-sucks! My heart goes out to her.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Doesn't This Spell Idea Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagelz View Post
    awaken is lvl 5 druid transmutation(3d6 int) . create undead is lvl 6 necromancy(13 int 14 wis ghouls and ghasts).

    "A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example...
    Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects,"

    So as long as your dm does not say that you're prohibited schools prevent you from creating this effect: limited wish fufills your need.
    And costs XP. No thank you.

    And I will have you note that I am not a prohibited school. I am human being!

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