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    Default [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Greetings,

    It is well-known that the Incantatrix Prestige Class is one of the most powerful ones a wizard could take. Could someone please explain to me the exact reasons why? (do not mistake this as a challenge against its power potential, just a request for a summary of the details)

    For example, its metamagic ability seems useful, but not all that amazing. With a spellcraft check, you can add metamagic to a spell being cast. I see three main issues with that, that make it less-than-brokenly-amazing:

    1) No-solo: It requires cooperation with another spellcaster and isn't available on a solo basis. This is a drawback, since the wizard in question will be much less powerful if having to do things on his own. (a big thing about wizards being their ability to single-handedly be powerful, rather than rely on teammates)

    2) Cooperation doubtful: It is doubtful that you will have another wizard on the team, since most D&D parties usually field one wizard. I guess you could help out the cleric, but the cleric's spellcasting abilities are hardly that damage-focused to make it worth it. Most of the time the cleric would be healing or buffing.

    3) Action-usage: If you do have two wizards doing damage, it is more useful to have both of them, say, cast a fireball, rather than one of them cast a fireball and the other make it maximized. Sure, the latter option uses up more resources, but is more potent.

    So, please refute me, shoot me down, show me why this PrC is amazing to the point of brokenness.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Magic is the most powerful thing in the game.
    Metamagic makes magic much more powerful, for a high cost. The cost is what keeps it from breaking the game.
    Incantatrix both lowers the cost of metamagic, and increases its scope to cooperative casting, item casting, and so on.
    Ergo, Incantatrix breaks the game.

    Orbs of Doom illustrate my point.

    EDIT: Regarding the Cooperative Metamagic ability specifically, when the Incantatrix runs out of high-level spells, and the Incantatrix's ally has run out of high-level spells, the Incantatrix can turn his ally's low-level spells into high-level ones. Effectively, the ally now has double the high-level spell slots. Metamagic Effect and Instant Metamagic do this for the Incantatrix himself. Improved Metamagic raises all of his spell slots even more. And that's before adding feats like Practical and Easy Metamagic or Arcane Thesis...which conveniently come free with the 4 bonus feats.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-07-08 at 05:52 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    The Incantatrix can apply metamagic to an ongoing spell.
    This ability can be used to make spells persistent with a skill check 1+int mod times per day.
    For example.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Make sure you're looking at the right Incantatrix. The one online is the 3.0 version which while alright, is not really broken (though Improved Metamagic is still too good). Player's Guide to Faerun contains the right one.

    As for why it's incredibly powerful, something I was able to dig up from some thread where the question came up in:

    "And the biggest power of [Incantatrix] comes from the following abilities:

    Cooperative Metamagic [Level 2]: Basically, you can apply a metamagic feat you know to a spell an ally casts (you could just have your familiar cast these spells with Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability [SpC Level 6 Universal] if you need to work "alone") 3+Int times per day. At best, you apply Persistent Spell [CArc] and enjoy the 3+Int persisted buffs on the party. Lots of other good metamagic exists too though.

    Metamagic Effect [Level 3]: You can apply a metamagic feat you know to an effect in place. Basically, this allows you to persist another 3+Int spells of your choice - this time you can even cast them yourself. Again, take any metamagic that can be applied to constant effect and apply it for free.

    Instant Metamagic [Level 7+9]: This is only 1/2 times per day, but it's a free metamagic on a spell you cast. You can persist two additional spells or boost your Boom Booms on the fly (something like Twin Spell, Quicken Spell or such is fun)

    Improved Metamagic [Level 10]: All your metamagic costs are reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. In English, this allows you to stack a ****ton of metamagic feats on an offensive spell and deal few hundred points of damage with a level 9 slots. Combined with Arcane Thesis [PHBII], 0-adjustment metamagic feats (such as Invisible Spell [Cityscape] & Sanctum Spell [CArc]) and enough feats to reduce the cost of a single metamagic feat (Practical Metamagic [RoD], Easy Metamagic [Dragon 325] & co.) and you can be dealing a few hundred points of damage from slot, the same level as the original spell. And Quicken it for good measure. There are other and more conservative uses for this but they're all busted.


    Of course, because Incantatrix isn't broken enough with the above abilities, you also get 4 free metamagic feats, ability to steal effects cast by other spellcasters, ability to apply metamagic to Wands & al. (like an Artificer indeed), etc. Basically, the class is just nuts. In so many ways it's not even funny. Remove 3 of the above 4 abilities and it's still worth taking."


    *Editor's Note: Errata nerfs Instant Metamagic to maximum of the highest level spell you can cast. Still useful, and e.g. Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell can pump up your maximum level but not broken. Still v. good.*
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-07-08 at 05:52 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Ok, couple things.

    Incantatrix gives more bonus feats than straight wizard. Thats good on its own, but not breaking.

    Incantatrix has 2 abilities to apply metamagic. One allows him to apply metamagic to allies casting. The trick there isn't to apply Empower Spell to the cleric's Flame Strike, its to apply Persistant Spell to the cleric's Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Righteous Might, and Divine Powah.

    The other allows the Incantatrix to apply MM for free to his own abilities, spontaneously as he casts them, AND they are free. Again, this is not to apply free Empower Spells to your Fireball. This is to apply free Persist Spell to your Polymorph spell, or similar shananigans.

    The capstone is the best though. -1 Metamagic to ALL spells for EACH Metamagic feat applied, to a minimum of 1 level. That means +1 SL Empowers and Split Rays, +3 SL Quickens and Twins, etc. Combine that with Arcane Thesis and your favorite spell can have a dozen MM feats applied to it without increasing the spell level AT ALL. Suck on a Searing Empowered Twinned Energy Admixture: Acid Occular Repeating Fiery Quickened Orb of Fire, and then another one, and then 2 more next round. Thats easily over 1000 unresistable damage that only requires 4 touch attacks.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    and in general, a wizard doesn't measure his/her power by how much damage they can do with a fireball. a wizard's power comes from being able to completely control a situation in any number of ways based on what spells are prepared that morning.

    see a group of low level mooks? color spray.
    see a group of medium level mooks? evard's black tentacles.
    see a group of high level mooks? pick a random spell 6th level or higher and you'll probably still destroy them.

    Pardon my lacking knowledge in powerful spells, I normally play BSFs. And I have never played a wizard. (nope, not joking.)
    Last edited by The Rabbler; 2010-07-08 at 05:54 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rabbler View Post
    see a group of high level mooks? pick a random spell 6th level or higher and you'll probably still destroy them.
    The spell you're looking for there is Freezing Fog (SpC).
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Wow...

    Everything else looks useless in comparison. I'm looking at my wizard/master specialist right now, and it's so powerless and useless lol (in comparison)...

    Forgot the potential for Persistent Spell... although that would require godlike spellcraft checks.
    Last edited by Defiant; 2010-07-08 at 05:57 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    No solo? That is only for the first two levels, they start riding the solopwnmobile on 3rd level.

    Anyway, the cooperative spellcasting thing isn't as extraordinarily powerful in battle, what it's good for is applying stuff like Persist Spell out of battle. So your Cleric buddy doesn't even need to spend his feats on DMM and his money on nightsticks, you can persist the lot of it at the beginning of the day.

    The third level ability (Metamagic Effect) allows you to do it yourself. This is in my opinion its most powerful ability.

    Metamagic Spell Trigger and Instant Metamagic are powerful too, but they are more difficult to build around.

    The capstone, Improved Metamagic, makes super-comboing metamagic stacks way too easy. Orbs of Doooooooooooooooom are the famous example.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    Wow...

    Everything else looks useless in comparison. I'm looking at my wizard/master specialist right now, and it's so powerless and useless lol...
    You're comparing a 20 story condo building to a skyscraper and wondering why it looks so small. Lemme tell you, I'd still rather own a 20 story condo building than a 1 room shack in a bad neighborhood.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    My Incantatrix's persisted 'buff rotations' chart made the DM change Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect.

    Mind you, Persistent Spell and Incantatrix are in the same book, Player's Guide to Faerun.
    Last edited by Endarire; 2010-07-08 at 05:59 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    Wow...

    Everything else looks useless in comparison. I'm looking at my wizard/master specialist right now, and it's so powerless and useless lol...
    Well, remember that Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage are the top tier of wizardry prestige classes. You're still a wizard (with an acceptable +0/+1 tier PrC), so you should still easily be able to bring about the end of the word combat with one or two spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    You're looking at it with too narrow a focus. The co-op metamagic ability isn't meant to be used on blasting spells; if you want to do that, that's what the instant metamagic and universal cost reduction features are for. Co-op metamagic is so you can Extend your Cleric's buffs, or Twin his Heal, or Chain what is usually a single-target spell without having to expend either one of your own spells or any more spell levels than are necessary.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    (I also think that I was looking at the wrong Incantatrix... the PGtF one certainly seems more... robust)

    Yes, I do realize wizard is still powerful, but still...

    My usual wizard approach is Conj/Trans focused specialist, then Master Specialist, then Archmage.

    But I weep at what it looks like compared to the potential of this. I mean, all those Persistent spells... *salivates*

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    You seem to be of the misconception that Incantatrix requires a partner. This is false. Imagine having 11 buffs of your highest level on 24/7. No co-operation here, just 1 invincible caster.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    OK, I have another question... what were the creators thinking??

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    This way leads to the dark side. Resist the temptation, for down that road leads only heartbreak and a nasty bruise caused by a flying DMG hurled with fiery vengeance!

    Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    This way leads to the dark side. Resist the temptation, for down that road leads only heartbreak and a nasty bruise caused by a flying DMG hurled with fiery vengeance!

    Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
    But... but... anything else is utter powerlessness! I have no other choice now!



    All along I hadn't worried about optimization and worked with characters normally deemed mediocre or merely powerful, basically because I didn't know the real potential (and didn't bother to try finding it "no need for power, just enjoy roleplaying"). Now my life is ruined.
    Last edited by Defiant; 2010-07-08 at 06:06 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    OK, I have another question... what were the creators thinking??
    Honestly, I'd go with "I dunno lol." More seriously, the Magic of Faerun one was focused on grabbing some metamagics and then banishing doods from Toril. For the PgtF one, I guess they thought it was underwhelming in the same sense that "man, it sucks to have to blow higher level spellslots for Maximized Fireball!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    OK, I have another question... what were the creators thinking??
    This one is simple. They weren't.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    OK, I have another question... what were the creators thinking??
    Still stuck on "Blasty McWizard is just getting Maximized Fireball out of a 5th-level slot instead of a 6th-level one." Forgot about buffs, debuffs, BC, stacking metamagic reducers...basically, all the things that wizards do in 3.5.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-07-08 at 06:10 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
    But... but... anything else is utter powerlessness! I have no other choice now!
    WoTC HQ:
    Okay, what updates should we make in the 3.0 conversion?
    Well, we got 1,000 complaints that the monk is underpowered, has conflicting class features and few good PrC, and one person said the incantrix cannot be used in their game.
    Right, give the incantrix more free metamagic, the ability to steal other caster's spells and more bonus feats. Oh and toss in some minor improvements to the monk.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Explain To Me Why Incantatrix Is Powerful

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Oh and toss in some minor improvements to the monk.
    "Make sure they're not too overpowered though... make them usable only like once a week or something"

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