[3.5e] freaking Wyverns, how do they work? (improved grab question)

[Nedjimb0]

So I'm DMing a game on saturday where the party will be facing a pair of Wyverns. This is the first time I've ever used or faced Wyverns, and when I was scanning the stat block I stumbled onto this:

"Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a wyvern must hit with its talons. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and stings."

What exactly does "it establishes a hold and stings" mean?

#1: Does the sting function essentially like constrict (deals damage automatically in the first round, and during consecutive rounds in addition to the talon attack used to initiate the grab)?

#2: Does the sting replace the talon damage from improved grab (instead of doing talon damage with a successful grapple check, the wyvern gets a sting attack)?

#3: Does the sting function like an other natural attack in a grapple (attack roll at -4, {in addition to or instead of making a grapple check to deal talon damage mainly})?

[Aroka]

Improved Grab is even murkier than the grapple rules. I've always figured "establishes a hold and X" means that on following rounds, the creature uses the stated attack in the grapple.

Also, constrict doesn't deal damage automatically each round, does it? It deals damage on grapple checks. (I have no clue whether that means "when you make a grapple check specifically to deal damage" or "when you make/initiate any grapple check".)

[erikun]

Wyvern

1.) Sting is the Sting attack listed in the Attack/Full Attack entry. Specifically, it is a +10 melee attack and deals 1d6+4 damage plus poison (Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con).

2.) You may use any natural weapon against a grappled opponent, and you may make multiple attacks if you have a sufficiently high base attack bonus. These are the standard rules for grappling. The Wyvern has a BAB of +7, and so gets two attacks.

The first attack would be at +6 (+10, -4 for attacking in a grapple) while the second is at +1 (+10, -4 grapple, -5 iterative).

3.) Yes.

Please note that if they Wyvern had the Constrict ability, which it does not, it would automatically deal damage for maintaining the grapple. The Salamander and Constrictor Snake are examples of monsters with the Constrict ability.

[Claudius Maximus]

2.) You may use any natural weapon against a grappled opponent, and you may make multiple attacks if you have a sufficiently high base attack bonus. These are the standard rules for grappling. The Wyvern has a BAB of +7, and so gets two attacks.

The first attack would be at +6 (+10, -4 for attacking in a grapple) while the second is at +1 (+10, -4 grapple, -5 iterative).

Except that you can not make iterative attacks with natural weapons. It can only hit with its sting once, and can not use any other weapon once it uses its sting.

[Aroka]

Is there a definitive source for iterative grapple actions, and for iterative grapple actions for monsters (maybe using improved grab) ?

[tyckspoon]

Except that you can not make iterative attacks with natural weapons. It can only hit with its sting once, and can not use any other weapon once it uses its sting.

Grappling is weird like that. The Wyvern isn't making iterative attacks; it is making two grapple actions, which are explicitly based on BAB, and have 'damage with a natural weapon' as one of the options you can perform with said grapple maneuver. But they're not attacks.

[erikun]

Except that you can not make iterative attacks with natural weapons. It can only hit with its sting once, and can not use any other weapon once it uses its sting.

Grappling is weird like that. The Wyvern isn't making iterative attacks; it is making two grapple actions, which are explicitly based on BAB, and have 'damage with a natural weapon' as one of the options you can perform with said grapple maneuver. But they're not attacks.

Yeah, this is yet another weird part about grappling. To Nedjimb0: You'd probably want to be sure one way or another if a grappling creature can make multiple attacks with their natural weapons or not, and stick with it in future games. Chances are, someone at the table will ask and someone will want an explanation. (Just simply "it is confusing, so this is the way we will play" generally works.)

Or if all your players insist on playing it differently, just play it differently.

[Optimystik]

Just chiming in to point out that I giggled at the ICP reference in the thread title.

Carry on

[Nedjimb0]

Wyvern

1.) Sting is the Sting attack listed in the Attack/Full Attack entry. Specifically, it is a +10 melee attack and deals 1d6+4 damage plus poison (Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Con).

2.) You may use any natural weapon against a grappled opponent, and you may make multiple attacks if you have a sufficiently high base attack bonus. These are the standard rules for grappling. The Wyvern has a BAB of +7, and so gets two attacks.

The first attack would be at +6 (+10, -4 for attacking in a grapple) while the second is at +1 (+10, -4 grapple, -5 iterative).

3.) Yes.

Please note that if they Wyvern had the Constrict ability, which it does not, it would automatically deal damage for maintaining the grapple. The Salamander and Constrictor Snake are examples of monsters with the Constrict ability.

Thanks Erikun!

I noticed that the sting was listed as a regular attack, and that the Wyvern doesn't have constrict, but I was confused about the language listed under its improved grab.

Most creatures with improved grab but lacking other special grapple-related attacks (constrict and rake namely) share this text block:

"Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, an X must hit with a Y attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity."

But the Wyvern's stat block says this:

"Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a wyvern must hit with its talons. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and stings."

Compare this to the Dire Tiger and Constrictor Snake stat blocks:

"Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a dire tiger must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake."

"Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a constrictor snake must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict."

This is what confused the hell out of me. If Wyverns have this extra mention about stinging people that looks like rake and constrict, then does it work like them? At the very least, a Wyvern seems able to sting in the same round that it establishes a hold w/ improved grab, if not being able to use it without the normal -4 penalty.

But, as you correctly pointed out, there is no special text that says a Wyvern's sting functions differently during a grapple.

So maybe the note after improved grab's usual text is just a cue to the DM that Wyverns really like stinging people during grapples :P

And maybe I'll just go back to using manticores...

[Aroka]

Looking at that, I realized that I always do rakes on the same turn, right after the hold is established.

... but not constricts.

Which way is correct?

[tyckspoon]

Looking at that, I realized that I always do rakes on the same turn, right after the hold is established.

... but not constricts.

Which way is correct?

Constrict specifically happens when you initiate the grapple and again whenever you win a grapple check (unspecific about who initiates it or what it was for, so if somebody fails to break your grapple, go ahead and constrict again!) It's part of the Constrict special ability.

[Nedjimb0]

Grappling is weird like that. The Wyvern isn't making iterative attacks; it is making two grapple actions, which are explicitly based on BAB, and have 'damage with a natural weapon' as one of the options you can perform with said grapple maneuver. But they're not attacks.

Was also why I was wondering if the sting "replaces" the talon as the damage done w/ the "damage an opponent" option for improved grab.

Especially because Wyverns can only use their talons in a flyby attack (so maybe they can't use them for the "deal damage" option?)

I freaking hate improved grab sometimes...

And thanks to everyone for the responses, they are all very helpful :D

P.S. [random tangent] I remember seeing the stat block for an owlbear in an earlier edition of d&d some time ago. Did improved grab used to be called hug, or were owlbears back in the day just really cuddly?

EDIT: http://joeskythedungeonbrawler.files...wlbear-pic.jpg

[Aroka]

Constrict specifically happens when you initiate the grapple and again whenever you win a grapple check (unspecific about who initiates it or what it was for, so if somebody fails to break your grapple, go ahead and constrict again!) It's part of the Constrict special ability.

This suggests that the wyvern's sting works the same way. It actually seems a bit underpowered otherwise. And yeah, I figure it'd make sense to use the sting for "damage opponent" actions.

[Nedjimb0]

This suggests that the wyvern's sting works the same way. It actually seems a bit underpowered otherwise. And yeah, I figure it'd make sense to use the sting for "damage opponent" actions.

Screw it, if it doesn't work this way I'm gonna house rule it like this (I keep on forgetting I can do that as DM...).

Also, can you be affected by the same poison more than once? IE if the Ithorian ranger fails his fort save for 2 stings, does he get 2d6 con damage twice?

[Aroka]

Also, can you be affected by the same poison more than once? IE if the Ithorian ranger fails his fort save for 2 stings, does he get 2d6 con damage twice?

... I hope so, that's how I've run it since 3.0 came out. Never actually checked that, but it seems like it'd work that way - certainly having more poison injected into your veins would be worse.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, can you be affected by the same poison more than once? IE if the Ithorian ranger fails his fort save for 2 stings, does he get 2d6 con damage twice?

Yes, different poison attacks are resolved independantly.

[erikun]

Thanks Erikun!

I noticed that the sting was listed as a regular attack, and that the Wyvern doesn't have constrict, but I was confused about the language listed under its improved grab.

Most creatures with improved grab but lacking other special grapple-related attacks (constrict and rake namely) share this text block:

Monsters with Improved Grab are generally better than players with Improved Grab. Yes, you are reading it correctly. A wyvern could swoop down, attack with its sting attack, get a grapple from attacking, and get a second sting attack after succeeding on the grapple. Note that the bad part about grappling is that you are grappling, and the rest of the party will likely tear you apart before you kill that wizard. Probably the best uses of grapples are when the monsters outnumber the party, when they can get a kill within the next round, or when they have Swallow Whole (and thus don't take penalities from grappling).