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2010-07-08, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I remember reading somewhere a houserule which allows Rogues to deal sneak attack damage when they actually sneak up at people. That is, emerge suddenly from their hiding place and immediately attack (without Invisibility or anything). I'm afraid RAW doesn't allow that, and it's a crying shame IMO, because it's such an iconic move. And I think it's what everyone visualizes when they first hear the term "sneak attack".
A very reasonable houserule is that, if you manage to remain hidden while attacking (described as "practically impossible" in the rules, and with a huge -20 to your Hide check), it counts as if you were invisible: the opponent loses his Dexterity bonus and Sneak Attack applies.
However, this is viable only in high levels, when you have enough ranks and dexterity and circumstance bonuses etc. And I'd like this method to be an option (not a guaranteed success, but an option) in low levels too. The houserule I vaguely remember did exactly that.
The idea was that, if you have successfully hidden from a foe, you can sneak up at him (another Hide check) and attack, denying him his Dexterity bonus. And the trick was was that the penalty for attacking while hiding wasn't a flat -20, but it depended on distance.
Striking an adjacent target was without penalty (or -5 perhaps? I'm not sure), while having to move out to get to him added a -5 penalty per 5 ft. I think. I'm not sure about the numbers, but It made perfect sense to me. It's very hard to dodge someone who strikes from the shadows, where he was previously unseen. If he moves 5 ft in the open before striking, you have a better chance to react, but it's still difficult because the attack was sudden and unexpected. However, if he takes his time coming from the other end of the room, you'll probably spot him and prepare before he reaches you.
So, three questions:
1) Does anyone remember this houserule, or where to find it?
2) Any ideas to improve it (or any arguments against it)?
3) If we were to replace the opponent's Spot check with a Reflex save (which sounds a bit more appropriate to me), how would we calculate the DC?The ghost of freedom ever comes
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2010-07-08, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Yes it does... you can sneak attack flat footed enemies. Enemies are flat footed:
1. During a surprise round
2. During the first round of combat, before their first turn in that combat.
Surprise rounds are awarded by the DM when there is a reasonable "surprise" to the attack. eg: when you were hiding and decide to attack someone unaware of you.
If the other person IS aware of you, then you roll initiative, that is "who goes first" based on "who is quicker on the draw".
If you have 4 people (named john, jeff, joe, and sam)
all are in a FFA fight. they rolled 18, 16, 10, and 8 respectively on their initiative.
Combat starts:
John goes first, jeff, joe and sam are all flat footed. John performs his turn.
Its now jeffs turn, joe and sam are still flat footed. jeff performs his turn
its now joes turn, sam is still flat footed, joe performs his turn
it is now sam's turn, nobody is flatfooted anymore, sam performs his turn.
round 2:
johns turn, nobody is flatfooted anymore, and are not going to be for the remainder of the battle.
What does all this mean?
by raw if your rogue snuck up on someone and attacked him he gets a surprise round, during which he inflicts sneak attack...
then they roll initiative and the combat begins. If the rogue wins initiative he gets a SECOND sneak attack against his opponent.
After that though, if he wants more sneak attacks he needs invisibility, concealment, paralyze the enemy, flanking, or one of other special conditions that will allow sneak attacks.Last edited by taltamir; 2010-07-08 at 10:41 PM.
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2010-07-08, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
There are actual rules for this already. Rules Compendium contains this little passage:
"Sneak up from Hiding: You can sneak up on someone after emerging from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn’t notice you until you attack or perform some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you."Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2010-07-08, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
@taltamir : Yeah, that's during Surprise round and the first round of combat. Don't get me wrong, it's cool.
But wouldn't it be cooler if the Rogue could hide mid-battle and re-emerge when no one's expecting him? Rogues are glass cannons, especially in low levels. Hiding from the big bad ogre and, two rounds later, gutting the big bad ogre which unwittingly stepped near you, why, that sounds awfully nice to me. And much better than flanking (which is a reliable method to get sneak attack, but highly unreliable for your hit points total).
I understand your point, but I don't think it will upset the balance too much if we give the Rogue a little something. He'll have a hard time sneak-attacking anything in a few levels, anyway.
Rules Compendium? Rules Compendium? Wow, don't I feel like an idiot now. Thanks, Eldariel, I've no idea why I thought it was a houserule. (I'm getting old and senile, that's why.)
That will be all, then.The ghost of freedom ever comes
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Gestalt Warrior Arena Tournament (Tactics Galore) is now recruiting.
Kerynia is a homebrew 3.5 Campaign Setting, currently on hold. But who knows...
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2010-07-08, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-07-08, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
That should be so difficult as to be feasible only on high levels. There's barely a reasonable way to surprise someone you're in active combat with.
Of course, if you spend one round going to a hiding place (with the enemy not pursuing), and then re-emerge, then I could see it happening. That's what that Rules Compendium thing is about.
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2010-07-09, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-09, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-09, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-09, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I thought that, as long you had concealment, you could make a hide check to hide, even in battle.
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2010-07-09, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2010-07-09, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I WAS THERELife is like a dungeon master, if it smiles at you, you just know that something terrible is about to happen
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2010-07-09, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I am sorry I can't quote rules I have no books here, I am sure there is a way you can make a bluff check to regain concealment in combat.
I also think you can feint in combat to cause your oppoent to lose dex to AC so you can sneak attack. Of course you need combat expertise and improved feint to get it to work.
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2010-07-09, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Point was what I quoted: Sneaking up on someone. By RAW, as soon as you no longer qualify for Hide people are aware of you so unless opponent is within 5' of the cover or concealment you're hiding in, you can't go gank them in the back without the "Sneak Up On X"-rules.
They're all on SRD (you can use Bluff-check to generate a distraction to hide & Feint is a special attack form, and a ****ty one at that), but that's not what this was about. This was about sneaking up on somebody and stabbing them before they notice you're sneaking up on them. Turns out there are rules for that.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-07-09, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
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2010-07-09, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
You can use Bluff to create a diversion so that you can hide, but if you want to hide in battle, the best way is to find a way to get Hide in Plain Sight.
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2010-07-09, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Improved feint- you can feint as a move action instead of a standard action (remember kids, you can feint in-between attacks during a full attack)
can't remember what the other one is called,
but it's where you use Bluff to create a diversion to hide.
Normally it's a move action, but with this feat, it's a free action.
rofl
are you sure?
cause you have to have shadows to use that if you go shadowdancer
and you have to be in natural terrain if you get it from ranger
but at higher levels you fight things that don't use eyes to see anyways
what about just throwing smokebombs down for concealment?Last edited by Popertop; 2010-07-09 at 02:20 PM.
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2010-07-09, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Bluff creates a diversion so you can find a hiding place. But you still need to find a place with concealment, cover, or something else that allows you to Hide. When that's done, next turn you can use the sneaking-up rules described above.
Feinting in combat is a standard action to treat the opponent as flat-footed against your next attack. It's not very useful without Improved Feint (reducing the time to a move action), and still suboptimal then. You can make a rapier build with Improved Feint, Power Attack, Cleave, and the skill trick Group Fake-out as a way to reliably sneak-attack groups of mooks, but it's feat-intensive, situational, and not very damaging.
If I had a way to reliably gain low-light vision or darkvision, this wouldn't be a problem. Additionally, I have a Least Illumination Crystal that activates as a swift action. The DM and I have a gentleman's agreement that if I sneak up on someone with the crystal darkened, I can activate it and attack without the enemy regaining their Dex to AC. Since it's already an undead-heavy campaign (and Death's Ruin isn't a complete fix), well, it's not like this unbalances the game in my favor.
If the opponent's also concealed from you, precision damage isn't allowed.
As for things that don't use eyes to see, you take the Darkstalker feat so they can't see you without eyes. (If you've a lot of magic items, though, you'll light up like a christmas tree to anyone with Detect Magic on.)Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-07-09 at 04:45 PM.
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2010-07-09, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Already can by RAW. If the enemy loses sight of them for some reason (they can't just say "i hide" mid battle, there has to be more to it), for example, they got invisibility, or hide in plain sight, or something... then they can perform precision based damage on the target.
concealment works for this.I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-07-09, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
While Rules Compendium does introduce some new rules, this particular one is an honest part of those collected from elsewhere, specifically Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102. And that, in turn, is just a rehash of the skill use in Song and Silence on page 36. This rule has been around for a long time.
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2010-07-09, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-07-09, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I thought RAW even before the compendium was that your target was flat-footed if he was unaware of you, and thus you could move and sneak attack once without any penalty. After that your opponent would be aware of you so no further attacks would be sneak attacks, even from a full attack.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
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2010-07-09, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-09, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I dunno . Maybe not immediately, kind of like when you beat someone's initiative and you get a full round of actions before he is ready for you. But then, you only get 1 attack not a full round attack if attacking from concealment. Ya I dunno. The rules compendium rule makes a lot of sense, or if I didn't know about that rule and I was DMing I would wing it and say "sure, go ahead and SA".
Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-07-09 at 11:05 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2010-07-09, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
The thing is really the distinction between SAing someone 'cause he's flat-footed and SAing someone 'cause he's not aware of you; I think the idea is that at any point of a fight, provided you are hidden from an opponent, you should be able to sneak up on that opponent even if he's not flat-footed. Which these rules accomplish. Great success!
Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-07-09 at 11:09 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-07-09, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking
I don't think it's curious at all. The rule on page 4 of both the 3.5 Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide meant that use of Hide was still valid.
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