[3.5] Looking for a houserule about rogues sneaking

[nefele]

I remember reading somewhere a houserule which allows Rogues to deal sneak attack damage when they actually sneak up at people. That is, emerge suddenly from their hiding place and immediately attack (without Invisibility or anything). I'm afraid RAW doesn't allow that, and it's a crying shame IMO, because it's such an iconic move. And I think it's what everyone visualizes when they first hear the term "sneak attack".

A very reasonable houserule is that, if you manage to remain hidden while attacking (described as "practically impossible" in the rules, and with a huge -20 to your Hide check), it counts as if you were invisible: the opponent loses his Dexterity bonus and Sneak Attack applies.

However, this is viable only in high levels, when you have enough ranks and dexterity and circumstance bonuses etc. And I'd like this method to be an option (not a guaranteed success, but an option) in low levels too. The houserule I vaguely remember did exactly that.

The idea was that, if you have successfully hidden from a foe, you can sneak up at him (another Hide check) and attack, denying him his Dexterity bonus. And the trick was was that the penalty for attacking while hiding wasn't a flat -20, but it depended on distance.

Striking an adjacent target was without penalty (or -5 perhaps? I'm not sure), while having to move out to get to him added a -5 penalty per 5 ft. I think. I'm not sure about the numbers, but It made perfect sense to me. It's very hard to dodge someone who strikes from the shadows, where he was previously unseen. If he moves 5 ft in the open before striking, you have a better chance to react, but it's still difficult because the attack was sudden and unexpected. However, if he takes his time coming from the other end of the room, you'll probably spot him and prepare before he reaches you.

So, three questions:
1) Does anyone remember this houserule, or where to find it?
2) Any ideas to improve it (or any arguments against it)?
3) If we were to replace the opponent's Spot check with a Reflex save (which sounds a bit more appropriate to me), how would we calculate the DC?

[taltamir]

I remember reading somewhere a houserule which allows Rogues to deal sneak attack damage when they actually sneak up at people. That is, emerge suddenly from their hiding place and immediately attack (without Invisibility or anything). I'm afraid RAW doesn't allow that, and it's a crying shame IMO, because it's such an iconic move. And I think it's what everyone visualizes when they first hear the term "sneak attack".

Yes it does... you can sneak attack flat footed enemies. Enemies are flat footed:
1. During a surprise round
2. During the first round of combat, before their first turn in that combat.

Surprise rounds are awarded by the DM when there is a reasonable "surprise" to the attack. eg: when you were hiding and decide to attack someone unaware of you.

If the other person IS aware of you, then you roll initiative, that is "who goes first" based on "who is quicker on the draw".
If you have 4 people (named john, jeff, joe, and sam)
all are in a FFA fight. they rolled 18, 16, 10, and 8 respectively on their initiative.

Combat starts:
John goes first, jeff, joe and sam are all flat footed. John performs his turn.
Its now jeffs turn, joe and sam are still flat footed. jeff performs his turn
its now joes turn, sam is still flat footed, joe performs his turn
it is now sam's turn, nobody is flatfooted anymore, sam performs his turn.

round 2:
johns turn, nobody is flatfooted anymore, and are not going to be for the remainder of the battle.

What does all this mean?

by raw if your rogue snuck up on someone and attacked him he gets a surprise round, during which he inflicts sneak attack...
then they roll initiative and the combat begins. If the rogue wins initiative he gets a SECOND sneak attack against his opponent.

After that though, if he wants more sneak attacks he needs invisibility, concealment, paralyze the enemy, flanking, or one of other special conditions that will allow sneak attacks.

[Eldariel]

There are actual rules for this already. Rules Compendium contains this little passage:

"Sneak up from Hiding: You can sneak up on someone after emerging from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn’t notice you until you attack or perform some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you."

[nefele]

@taltamir : Yeah, that's during Surprise round and the first round of combat. Don't get me wrong, it's cool.

But wouldn't it be cooler if the Rogue could hide mid-battle and re-emerge when no one's expecting him? Rogues are glass cannons, especially in low levels. Hiding from the big bad ogre and, two rounds later, gutting the big bad ogre which unwittingly stepped near you, why, that sounds awfully nice to me. And much better than flanking (which is a reliable method to get sneak attack, but highly unreliable for your hit points total).

I understand your point, but I don't think it will upset the balance too much if we give the Rogue a little something. He'll have a hard time sneak-attacking anything in a few levels, anyway.

There are actual rules for this already. Rules Compendium contains this little passage

Rules Compendium? Rules Compendium? Wow, don't I feel like an idiot now. Thanks, Eldariel, I've no idea why I thought it was a houserule. (I'm getting old and senile, that's why.)

That will be all, then.

[Eldariel]

Rules Compendium? Rules Compendium? Wow, don't I feel like an idiot now. Thanks, Eldariel, I've no idea why I thought it was a houserule. (I'm getting old and senile, that's why.)

That will be all, then.

Yeah, it's amazing what rules you may find when you browse the Book of Rules Na, it's...pretty normal to miss whatever is in there 'cause that's the last place you'd think to look new rules for. Compendiums are supposed to be Compendiums, not rewrites

[Defiant]

But wouldn't it be cooler if the Rogue could hide mid-battle and re-emerge when no one's expecting him?

That should be so difficult as to be feasible only on high levels. There's barely a reasonable way to surprise someone you're in active combat with.

Of course, if you spend one round going to a hiding place (with the enemy not pursuing), and then re-emerge, then I could see it happening. That's what that Rules Compendium thing is about.

[Math_Mage]

That should be so difficult as to be feasible only on high levels. There's barely a reasonable way to surprise someone you're in active combat with.

Of course, if you spend one round going to a hiding place (with the enemy not pursuing), and then re-emerge, then I could see it happening. That's what that Rules Compendium thing is about.

Or if, say, you leave one side of the battlefield, sneak to the other side of the battlefield, and shank a goblin that's never seen you before.

[Defiant]

Or if, say, you leave one side of the battlefield, sneak to the other side of the battlefield, and shank a goblin that's never seen you before.

How large a battlefield are we talking here?

[Math_Mage]

How large a battlefield are we talking here?

A PbP campaign I'm playing in is in the middle of a massive battle a few hundred feet on a side. Of course, since there's concealment from it being evening, I don't have to worry about how to sneak around...

[Gan The Grey]

I thought that, as long you had concealment, you could make a hide check to hide, even in battle.

[Killer Angel]

I remember reading somewhere a houserule which allows Rogues to deal sneak attack damage when they actually sneak up at people. That is, emerge suddenly from their hiding place and immediately attack (without Invisibility or anything).

Apart what said by other posters, I think the concept arrives from AD&D, when the Thief's class was able to backstab (only once - the first hit), when the target wasn't expecting to be attacked.

[Coplantor]

@taltamir : Yeah, that's during Surprise round and the first round of combat. Don't get me wrong, it's cool.

But wouldn't it be cooler if the Rogue could hide mid-battle and re-emerge when no one's expecting him? Rogues are glass cannons, especially in low levels. Hiding from the big bad ogre and, two rounds later, gutting the big bad ogre which unwittingly stepped near you, why, that sounds awfully nice to me. And much better than flanking (which is a reliable method to get sneak attack, but highly unreliable for your hit points total).

Huh?

How is this not supported by RAW? If you go hiding and attack, then your attack happens while they wer unnaware of your presence behind them, therefore, their dex bonus to AC is denied.
As far as I know, that's enough for you to SA the enemy.

[Earthwalker]

I am sorry I can't quote rules I have no books here, I am sure there is a way you can make a bluff check to regain concealment in combat.

I also think you can feint in combat to cause your oppoent to lose dex to AC so you can sneak attack. Of course you need combat expertise and improved feint to get it to work.

[Eldariel]

Huh?

How is this not supported by RAW? If you go hiding and attack, then your attack happens while they wer unnaware of your presence behind them, therefore, their dex bonus to AC is denied.
As far as I know, that's enough for you to SA the enemy.

Point was what I quoted: Sneaking up on someone. By RAW, as soon as you no longer qualify for Hide people are aware of you so unless opponent is within 5' of the cover or concealment you're hiding in, you can't go gank them in the back without the "Sneak Up On X"-rules.

I am sorry I can't quote rules I have no books here, I am sure there is a way you can make a bluff check to regain concealment in combat.

I also think you can feint in combat to cause your oppoent to lose dex to AC so you can sneak attack. Of course you need combat expertise and improved feint to get it to work.

They're all on SRD (you can use Bluff-check to generate a distraction to hide & Feint is a special attack form, and a ****ty one at that), but that's not what this was about. This was about sneaking up on somebody and stabbing them before they notice you're sneaking up on them. Turns out there are rules for that.

[Glimbur]

A PbP campaign I'm playing in is in the middle of a massive battle a few hundred feet on a side. Of course, since there's concealment from it being evening, I don't have to worry about how to sneak around...

That does make it impossible for you to sneak attack... you can't sneak attack people with concealment. I usually suggest ignoring this rule because it leads to dark alleys being great places to fight off mobs of thieves.

[Frosty]

You can use Bluff to create a diversion so that you can hide, but if you want to hide in battle, the best way is to find a way to get Hide in Plain Sight.

[Popertop]

Improved feint- you can feint as a move action instead of a standard action (remember kids, you can feint in-between attacks during a full attack)

can't remember what the other one is called,
but it's where you use Bluff to create a diversion to hide.
Normally it's a move action, but with this feat, it's a free action.

rofl

You can use Bluff to create a diversion so that you can hide, but if you want to hide in battle, the best way is to find a way to get Hide in Plain Sight.

are you sure?

cause you have to have shadows to use that if you go shadowdancer
and you have to be in natural terrain if you get it from ranger

but at higher levels you fight things that don't use eyes to see anyways

what about just throwing smokebombs down for concealment?

[Math_Mage]

I am sorry I can't quote rules I have no books here, I am sure there is a way you can make a bluff check to regain concealment in combat.

I also think you can feint in combat to cause your oppoent to lose dex to AC so you can sneak attack. Of course you need combat expertise and improved feint to get it to work.

Bluff creates a diversion so you can find a hiding place. But you still need to find a place with concealment, cover, or something else that allows you to Hide. When that's done, next turn you can use the sneaking-up rules described above.

Feinting in combat is a standard action to treat the opponent as flat-footed against your next attack. It's not very useful without Improved Feint (reducing the time to a move action), and still suboptimal then. You can make a rapier build with Improved Feint, Power Attack, Cleave, and the skill trick Group Fake-out as a way to reliably sneak-attack groups of mooks, but it's feat-intensive, situational, and not very damaging.

That does make it impossible for you to sneak attack... you can't sneak attack people with concealment. I usually suggest ignoring this rule because it leads to dark alleys being great places to fight off mobs of thieves.

If I had a way to reliably gain low-light vision or darkvision, this wouldn't be a problem. Additionally, I have a Least Illumination Crystal that activates as a swift action. The DM and I have a gentleman's agreement that if I sneak up on someone with the crystal darkened, I can activate it and attack without the enemy regaining their Dex to AC. Since it's already an undead-heavy campaign (and Death's Ruin isn't a complete fix), well, it's not like this unbalances the game in my favor.

are you sure?

cause you have to have shadows to use that if you go shadowdancer
and you have to be in natural terrain if you get it from ranger

but at higher levels you fight things that don't use eyes to see anyways

what about just throwing smokebombs down for concealment?

If the opponent's also concealed from you, precision damage isn't allowed.

As for things that don't use eyes to see, you take the Darkstalker feat so they can't see you without eyes. (If you've a lot of magic items, though, you'll light up like a christmas tree to anyone with Detect Magic on.)

[taltamir]

But wouldn't it be cooler if the Rogue could hide mid-battle and re-emerge when no one's expecting him?

Already can by RAW. If the enemy loses sight of them for some reason (they can't just say "i hide" mid battle, there has to be more to it), for example, they got invisibility, or hide in plain sight, or something... then they can perform precision based damage on the target.
concealment works for this.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, it's amazing what rules you may find when you browse the Book of Rules Na, it's...pretty normal to miss whatever is in there 'cause that's the last place you'd think to look new rules for.

While Rules Compendium does introduce some new rules, this particular one is an honest part of those collected from elsewhere, specifically Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102. And that, in turn, is just a rehash of the skill use in Song and Silence on page 36. This rule has been around for a long time.

[Eldariel]

While Rules Compendium does introduce some new rules, this particular one is an honest part of those collected from elsewhere, specifically Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102. And that, in turn, is just a rehash of the skill use in Song and Silence on page 36. This rule has been around for a long time.

Considering Song and Silence predates 3.5 PHB, it's extremely curious it never made it there.

[ericgrau]

I thought RAW even before the compendium was that your target was flat-footed if he was unaware of you, and thus you could move and sneak attack once without any penalty. After that your opponent would be aware of you so no further attacks would be sneak attacks, even from a full attack.

[Math_Mage]

I thought RAW even before the compendium was that your target was flat-footed if he was unaware of you, and thus you could move and sneak attack once without any penalty. After that your opponent would be aware of you so no further attacks would be sneak attacks, even from a full attack.

But if you move, he becomes aware of you unless you make a Hide check as part of movement, which requires concealment and so on...unless you use the sneaking-up rules described above. No?

[ericgrau]

I dunno . Maybe not immediately, kind of like when you beat someone's initiative and you get a full round of actions before he is ready for you. But then, you only get 1 attack not a full round attack if attacking from concealment. Ya I dunno. The rules compendium rule makes a lot of sense, or if I didn't know about that rule and I was DMing I would wing it and say "sure, go ahead and SA".

[Eldariel]

The thing is really the distinction between SAing someone 'cause he's flat-footed and SAing someone 'cause he's not aware of you; I think the idea is that at any point of a fight, provided you are hidden from an opponent, you should be able to sneak up on that opponent even if he's not flat-footed. Which these rules accomplish. Great success!

[Curmudgeon]

Considering Song and Silence predates 3.5 PHB, it's extremely curious it never made it there.

I don't think it's curious at all. The rule on page 4 of both the 3.5 Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide meant that use of Hide was still valid.

This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

Complete Adventurer is the logical successor to Song and Silence, so it's entirely consistent that when they came out with the first 3.5 supplement for skillful characters they'd revisit the 3.0 supplement that covered the same ground.