A weird-y build help request

[Thieves]

I'm making a Warcraft-style ogre. With two heads.

Please disregard ability score adjustments from race for now, these haven't been decided. The core idea is, since it has two heads, it will have two classes, 10 levels per head. One of them I want to be the warrior one, and this will be Warblade. The question is: what spellcasting classes could synergize well / at all with Warblade? Full casters / armored casters preferred, not druids, semi-casters with more Caster than Semi allowed. Remember there's only 10 levels of that... and no way to get into Ur-Priest. I was thinking, with the limitation, maybe something gish-y?

I'm quite bent on Not going gestalt (most games I play in are not gestalt and would be difficult to smuggle it in), but if you have an idea for a gestalt then it'll be just as good just for the readz. My ideal would be a 10 / 10 build, even at a little expense of optimization.

So, dear Playground, what other class will you suggest for me to use to start delivering pure ogre-killmachine goodness?

P.S. I know ogres are RHD+LA, but whether I'm going to actually get Any mechanical race-boosts has not been decided. But what do you think? Should a character with 10 / 10 classes also have RHD+LA counted in? Buyoff aside, he is still going to be fighting a losing game against most single-classers, isn't he?

[Escheton]

Ettin?
Twoheaded creature from savage species?
or under-LA'd homebrew?

Most important thing here is: stats, rhd, actions.
All of which will cost you lvls. No way you can get a balanced lvl 20 2 headed ogre pre-epic. Just so ya know.

For actual classadvice: Dread necro

[hamishspence]

even if you're using a creature with a lot of hit dice, a very low CR for its hit dice, and making liberal use of the Nonassociated Classes rule- while you might get a creature with CR 20, its effective level as a character will be much higher.

For an example: Creature is CR 5, has 10 Hit Dice, 10 levels in Associated Class A, and 10 levels in Nonassociated class B.

It will have a CR of 20 (5 + 10 + 5).

But since Nonassociated Class Levels doesn't apply to PCs, it will be level 30 + whatever its LA is.

[Morph Bark]

Ettin?
Twoheaded creature from savage species?
or under-LA'd homebrew?

+1?

Also, giving each head different class levels, while in the mental sense it makes sense, in the physical sense it does less so if you're hell-bent on not going Gestalt. Why would he suddenly have tremendous HP just from his two heads focusing on different stuff? But I get it if you switch the levels up for each head as you progress. Dual progression PrCs might be your thing here.

Thinking of Int-based armoured casters... I think only the Archivist and Warmage are out there.

[Snake-Aes]

Thinking of Int-based armoured casters... I think only the Archivist and Warmage are out there.

Duskblade. Warmage is cha-based.

[IdleMuse]

Duskblade. Warmage is cha-based.

You're right, but Warblade has Int synergy thanks to it's Edge ability.

[Kylarra]

Why not a psion to represent a think-y head? That way you don't have to worry about gestures or components. Or maybe Psion1/Slayer 9 afterwards so you don't lose too much BAB.

[erikun]

Wizard, Archivist, and Duskblade for INT synergy. Factorium is also a choice. You could also choose Bard and pick up the Song of the White Raven feat to use your bardic music alongside the Warblade maneuvers.

[Glimbur]

Why not a psion to represent a think-y head? That way you don't have to worry about gestures or components. Or maybe Psion1/Slayer 9 afterwards so you don't lose too much BAB.

Psion is great because it's int based and has no ASF. You might have some action economy problems, but psionic powers are supposedly better at sneaking past those than anything short of Factotum. Speaking of which, I'd also second Factotum if you want bonuses from Int but don't want to track so many spells.

[Kylarra]

Schism is the usual suspect, but as is, I'd probably suggest just self-buffing since you'll lose a lot of power by trying to 10/10 the heads.

[Thieves]

Well, yes, I'll have to pinpoint more on the race there. I know it's not realistic mechanically (wha?), but do you think that a race with absolutely No extra features except being able to take two standard actions in a fight (one governed by each head) would warrant not getting LA? I'm thinking: large size, one move action and two standard actions, or one full round action. Treated as a single character for defenses. Thoughts?

Further nerfing would perhaps imply just making it two 10-level PCs as if bound together by a rope. Separate everything, so sub-par defenses / attacks with worse action economy than two actual persons. That, in turn, would make it terribly underwhelming, wouldn't it?

But I get it if you switch the levels up for each head as you progress. Dual progression PrCs might be your thing here.

Yes, I thought just about that, taking levels in turns. What are dual progression PrCs and how do they work? And maybe I'll consider gestalt...

Different angle. What is the best synergizing caster (any type) and melee frontliner (any type, ToB would be cool)? Preferably not in a breaking tier (though given I'll be playing it I won't break it). I just had the idea about maybe to use a Warlock with a fighter that works off of Cha.

[Escheton]

Large size is always LA1. Double actions is at least 2.
Seriously, check out both the ettin and multiheaded creature from savage species. Ettin is 10 rhd and LA +5. Lvl 5 swordsage Ettin could be fun though.
Multiheaded is based of ettin just being a multiheaded ogre.
One head controls each arm so multiweapon fighting is made easyer.
Short of some epic lvl demonlords and I think nilshai there are few examples of 1 creature with multiple actions available short of timestop/celerity.
Check SS for a guide to homebrewing with LA. Probably does not have this though.


And yes, most lvl 20 chars can beat up 2 lvl 10's with ease.
But you are unclear how you are handling total bab, hitdie, prestiges and general classprogression.

[Fortuna]

Two standard actions in a round and Large size is open to some incredible abuse. That's ignoring the basics of the action economy and handing out something that, to my knowledge, won't be found outside of LA +1 fronm Dragon or LA +2 otherwise. That's not an LA +0 race.

As to strapping two PCs together with rope, that hurts some but not too much. If you play it right, it doesn't really hurt at all (see: psion and wizard strapped together). Using a fighter-type makes it hurt a damn sight more, because now you have to bring squishy mage-type into melee with you.

Crusader gains some, including saves, from Cha. You could try a Serenity Paladin with Incarnate, which might be interesting, or replace the paladin with swordsage (I'm sure a few of those will be turning up shortly) for more power.

[Thieves]

@Escheton: Ettins are way beyond there with their level, and with only 5 levels you don't actually get to play anything nice... But the multiheaded creature I took a look at and it might be just down my alley.

Two standard actions in a round and Large size is open to some incredible abuse. That's ignoring the basics of the action economy and handing out something that, to my knowledge, won't be found outside of LA +1 fronm Dragon or LA +2 otherwise. That's not an LA +0 race.

As to strapping two PCs together with rope, that hurts some but not too much. If you play it right, it doesn't really hurt at all (see: psion and wizard strapped together). Using a fighter-type makes it hurt a damn sight more, because now you have to bring squishy mage-type into melee with you.

I meant figuratively... To further mechanize: one character (saves, bab, hp etc.), with two standard actions allowed, but one head (clever, spellcasting) has one action and the second (brute, melee) has another action. It's not that it can cast Meteor Swarm twice.

Well, now that I got word from my DM, the reason I'm supposed to play it is because there are only 3 players. And we need to have 4 PCs. So. Thanks for the advice on classes, I won't be bothering you anymore and do some more bookcrawling on my own. I'll experiment with gestalting and try calculating how many nerfs / bonuses I need to fill up for 2.