What is "Reasonable" at various levels for a martial character [PF/3.5]?

[subject42]

What are "reasonable" values for ability scores, to-hit, saves, AC, skill checks, and single attack damage at various levels for a character? I'm specifically interested in levels 1, 6, 11, and 16, but I'll take what I can get.

Ideally, the character is without spellcasting, built competently, but not thoroughly optimized down to the last detail.

[Yora]

Depends highly on the party and the opponents the gm throws at the party. And also a lot on the specific characters build.

[Lycanthromancer]

What are "reasonable" values for ability scores, to-hit, saves, AC, skill checks, and single attack damage at various levels for a character? I'm specifically interested in levels 1, 6, 11, and 16, but I'll take what I can get.

Ideally, the character is without spellcasting, built competently, but not thoroughly optimized down to the last detail.

That depends on the nature of the game you play, and who you're playing it with.

One-shot kills are fine if you're playing with people who are reasonably optimized, since most spellcaster-types are capable of using save-or-Xs to take out multiple foes in one shot, and it's fully reasonable to expect that a good hit will take out most near-equal CR creatures.

In other groups, dealing 20 damage per hit at level 5 is considered grossly overpowered, so YMMV.

[gallagher]

what i think is also important to this question is questions like the following: when should the martial player invest in a mode of flying? when should they invest in a way to teleport? you know, things that make it reasonable that a martial character can still be useful compared to casters

[subject42]

That depends on the nature of the game you play, and who you're playing it with.

You're completely right with that statement.

I could have explained it better, but I'm trying to collect people's opinions and use them to build up an aggregate idea in my head on the consensus opinion of this board.

[nedz]

As others have said: it depends upon the group and the game; though, IMHO, the challange of the monsters willshould be set by the DM to match the party.

[subject42]

As others have said: it depends upon the group and the game; though, IMHO, the challange of the monsters willshould be set by the DM to match the party.

In your personal opinion, then, what do you, specifically, consider to be "reasonable"?

[Yora]

At 1st level, all you can really adjust is starting ability scores.
I prefer point buy 25, as that's more than enough to make characters stand out from the normal crowd. As a melee character, I'd put 14 or 15 in Strength and good scores in Dexterity and Constitution, optionally 13 in Intelligence for Combat Expertise. And with 25 points, you're almost out of points by then.

At 6th level, a character should have BAB +6, Str 16 (+3), and at least a Masterwork Weapon. Add some low level items and you should have about +12 to attack with your primary weapon.
With Dex 14 (+2), +1 breastplate (+6), and a +1 large shield (+3), you can easily end up with an AC of 21.

I've never played at 10th level or above, so that's all I have regarding that question.

[gbprime]

For my group's campaigns, I came up with "The Jewel Rule", after a former PC. It goes as follows...

Take a size M barbarian with a 2 handed weapon, power attack, and an 18 strength (before berserk) at level 1. Now level her up adding cleave at level 3, haste at level 5, and put her stat increases in STR. Also assume she gets a +2 STR and +1 hit and damage every 3 levels from items or spells.

That's your damage curve to measure your melee character against. Go over it and you're power gaming. Go below it by half or more and you're not being very effective and in danger of just wasting time while the barbarian kills everything.

The Jewel Rule doesn't work for groups that like to optimize, but for a non-optimized party, it works pretty well.

[nedz]

In your personal opinion, then, what do you, specifically, consider to be "reasonable"?

It depends upon the game I'm intending to run, which will, int turn, depend upon the group I'm running for.
I'm not trying to dodge the question, its just that I've run all kinds of games.

Maybe it would help if I turn this around ?

What sort of game do you want to run ?

[Coidzor]

How about, in order to not consistently have one's ability to harm CR appropriate foes decrease the further one gets from level 1?

Y'know, the ones we're supposed to assume the DM is going to use.

[Paul H]

Hi

Juat want to remind everyone that Pathfinder characters are much harder than basic 3.5. You'd need splat books to do better.

Eg Paladin:

Smite Evil now lasts until either you or your opponent goes down, or the time you pray for abilities.
Smite Evil does 2 pts/lvl vs Evil Dragons, Evil Outsiders or Undead
Smite ignores all DR
Lay on Hands can be used as a swift action on self
Later, you can use Lay on Hands to Channel Positive Energy - Healing in a 30' radius burst.
You can pop in and out of Paladin Class - no multiclass restrictions
Your Favoured Class grants either extra 1HP or 1 skill pt/lvl. (Your choice).

That's just the start.

OP - let us know what style you prefer playing, and we'll be better able to help

Thanks
Paul H

[Paul H]

Hi

Just as an example, 20 pt buy for Pathfinder Society 'Living' campaign, here's my 'martial' character:

Half-Orc Sorceror 3/Paladin 2 (Dragon Disciple next)

Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 17

Has M/c Greataxe, and can 'grow' claws for 3+Cha mod rnds/day.

With Smite, 2xClaws +8. Dam D4+4 (+1 c/w Arcane Strike) Overcomes ALL DR.
Greataxe +9 Dam D12+5 (+1 c/w Arcane Strike) or
Attack +8 Dam D12 +9 (Smite & Arcane Strike)

AC 22 (Includes Shield Spell from wand)

And silly saves

Thanks
Paul H

[subject42]

Maybe it would help if I turn this around ?

What sort of game do you want to run ?

I'm actually looking at this as a way to develop a general rule of thumb more than anything. My group has some players that are avid fans of homebrewed material and I'd like to have some math behind my judgements on their suggestions, rather than just running on gut feelings.

How about, in order to not consistently have one's ability to harm CR appropriate foes decrease the further one gets from level 1?

Y'know, the ones we're supposed to assume the DM is going to use.

That was my original thought, actually, and indirectly what spawned this thread. I've realized that CR is a pretty inaccurate measure of the enemy. There are enough TDCrab threads around here to make me almost give up on CR entirely.

As an example for to-hit, I just grabbed four Pathfinder SRD monsters at random with CRs of 1, 6, 11, and 16. The number in parentheses is the difference between the BAB of a full-BAB class of with a Class Level equal to the CR and the monster's Armor Class.

It looks like to hit roughly half the time, a full BAB class needs to be getting an effective +4 to hit from various sources across multiple levels. The dragon will still be hard to hit, but that may be due to dragon's being under CRed. I'm not 100% sure.

How often should a full BAB character be hitting against a CR equivalent monster? 50%? 75%? 90%?

Ancient Black Dragon:
CR 16
AC: 38 (22)
Flat Footed: 38 (22)

Hamatula
CR 11
AC: 26 (15)
Flat Footed: 20 (9)

Shambling Mound
CR 6
AC: 19 (13)
Flat Footed: 19 (13)

Ghoul
CR 1
AC: 14 (13)
Flat Footed: 12 (11)


That's roughly the gist of what I'm looking to find out, if anyone has any ideas on any of the things that I mentioned in my original post.

[ericgrau]

I actually have a set of vanilla builds for exactly this. Here's one optimized but unbuffed core fighter, simple gear only, no shenanigans:
{table]Level | AB | AC | damage | HP | fort | ref | will
1 | 5 | 21 | 9 | 12 | 4 | 1 | 0
2 | 6 | 21 | 9 | 19.5 | 5 | 1 | 0
3 | 7 | 22 | 9 | 27 | 6 | 3 | 2
4 | 9 | 23 | 13.2 | 34.5 | 6 | 2 | 1
5 | 11 | 23 | 13.4 | 42 | 6 | 2 | 1
6 | 12,7 | 23 | 14.4 | 52.5 | 8 | 4 | 3
7 | 13,8 | 23 | 17.9 | 60 | 7 | 3 | 2
8 | 15,10 | 25 | 17.9 | 67.5 | 9 | 4 | 3
9 | 16,11 | 26 | 17.9 | 87 | 10 | 5 | 4
10 | 17,12 | 26 | 21.4 | 95.5 | 11 | 5 | 6
11 | 19,19,14,9 | 27 | 21.4 | 104 | 11 | 5 | 6
12 | 21,21,16,11 | 30 | 24.6 | 112.5 | 13 | 7 | 8
13 | 22,22,17,12 | 33 | 24.6 | 121 | 13 | 7 | 8
14 | 24,24,19,14 | 35 | 25.8 | 126.5 | 15 | 8 | 9
15 | 25,25,20,15 | 37 | 29.3 | 132 | 15 | 9 | 11
16 | 26,26,21,16,11 | 40 | 29.3 | 137.5 | 18 | 11 | 13
17 | 28,28,23,18,13 | 40 | 34 | 163 | 20 | 12 | 14
18 | 29,29,24,19,14 | 44 | 34 | 166.5 | 21 | 13 | 16
19 | 30,30,25,20,15 | 45 | 41 | 176 | 22 | 14 | 18
20 | 32,32,27,22,17 | 45 | 52.7 | 202.5 | 24 | 14 | 18

[/table]
This is SAB. THF gets about 3.5 more magic weapon dice damage at mid levels, 3.5-7.5 more base damage (3.9-9 avg. after crits) and about 3 less AC. At low levels or if buffed heavily until his AB exceeds the monster's AC, he can also benefit more from power attack. Otherwise it's not worth the increased miss chance. Or you could pull shock trooper or etc. shenanigans, but IIRC Pathfinder makes that all moot anyway. However animated shields close the AC gap at high levels leaving no drawback to THF, assuming your players know about them and don't think they're silly. EDIT: IIRC it also assumes the elite array or average rolled stats, which are about the same. But many groups play with high stats. There are also a bunch of random assumptions in the program for simplicity. Like only dealing with magic items and ignoring mundane stuff like how you can't afford full plate at level 1. Eh, oh well.

EDIT: It seems like you're also in need of the average monster stats which are also in my notes.

EDIT #2: After some examination of high level monsters, it seems that reflex saves tend to hit more targets and have a higher save DC. So, while less effective per hit, they are more likely to hit you and hit repeatedly and thus are more dangerous overall than fort or will. You may want to boost the reflex save as you would the will save. My program assumed will was more dangerous as figuring out hundreds of actual monster spells would have been insane.

[subject42]

That post is absurdly useful.

So is the linked thread.

Thank you very much.

[Math_Mage]

How was the fighter built, if I may ask?

[ericgrau]

Computer simulation vs. the linked average monster stats, while trying every possible combination of stat boosting gear . Some percentage of wealth was left unused under the assumption it went to utility stuff. Also assumed about 25% of incoming attacks were save based, with different levels of suckage assumed for failing a save. I gave will saves the worst results, which of course led to wisdom and feat based save boosts. Among other simplifications it assumes toe-to-toe combat of course. Optimizing for strategic combat would be nigh impossible.

[Math_Mage]

Computer simulation vs. the linked average monster stats, while trying every possible combination of stat boosting gear . Some percentage of wealth was left unused under the assumption it went to utility stuff. Also assumed about 25% of incoming attacks were save based, with different levels of suckage assumed for failing a save. I gave will saves the worst results, which of course led to wisdom and feat based save boosts. Among other simplifications it assumes toe-to-toe combat of course. Optimizing for strategic combat would be nigh impossible.

While that's fascinating, I'm afraid I was unclear. I was wondering about the end result, not the process.

[ericgrau]

Oh, maybe this will help there:
{table]Level | Magic Str | Magic Con | Magic Wis | Magic Saves | Magic Weapon | Magic AC | Boots of Speed
1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0
4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0
5 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0
6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0
7 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0
8 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 0
9 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 0
10 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 0
11 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 1
12 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 8 | 1
13 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 11 | 1
14 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 13 | 1
15 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 15 | 1
16 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 5 | 4 | 18 | 1
17 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 5 | 18 | 1
18 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 5 | 22 | 1
19 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 23 | 1
20 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 10 | 23 | 1

[/table]
Magic Weapon: Is actually a +1 weapon with enough +1d6 damage boosters to reach the given equivalent bonus.
Magic AC: Combined total of armor enhancement, shield enhancement, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, dusty rose prism ioun stone. I think it also includes the +2 effective benefit from mithril at high levels.
Magic Saves: Cloak of resistance, luckstone, one of the ioun stones.

+1 boost every 4 levels went to strength. Race was dwarf. Boots of speed were actually limited by 1/4 WBL max per item IIRC (not a real rule, btw). The program always likes to grab them as soon as it can, even with half of all attacks assumed to be single attacks.

[Math_Mage]

Interesting. Thanks!

[Malificus]

huh, they actually get rid of the magic weapon at level 5

[ericgrau]

It optimizes each level individually lol. Programming it to figure out a progression would have been harder. But it's not hard for a human to guess one. Just save up instead of getting item X early.

[Math_Mage]

huh, they actually get rid of the magic weapon at level 5

+2 Str ~ +1 weapon, so for an actual campaign, you might want the 2000 gp left over to buy something else (like a cloak of resistance).

[ericgrau]

Actually +2 strength plus a masterwork weapon (+2 AB, +1 damage) is significantly better than +0 strength and a +1 weapon (+1 AB, +1 damage). But however you want to progress; the weapon route gives you that +1 damage earlier and then ya later you can spend your 2,000 gp on something else. It's not the end of the world either way you do it.

[Eldariel]

Actually +2 strength plus a masterwork weapon (+2 AB, +1 damage) is significantly better than +0 strength and a +1 weapon (+1 AB, +1 damage). But however you want to progress; the weapon route gives you that +1 damage earlier and then ya later you can spend your 2,000 gp on something else. It's not the end of the world either way you do it.

Yeah, +1 weapon is the true turkey in this regard as it's only +1 Damage composite improvement over Mw. It does have other remedying qualities like being harder to Sunder and penetrating DR/Magic (and outside Core, being a legal target for Lesser Weapon Crystals) though so it's not a total wash but yeah, Str-boosts tend to help more as they also help the various alternative combat tricks like Tripping and Grappling, and a Two-Hander actually gets +1.5 points of damage out of it (if you end up at an even value, the +2 increase is well worth it).

[Siosilvar]

Your AC at 1st level is rather ridiculous - a 1st level fighter can't get that high very easily with his ~125gp. Tower Shield + Scale Mail + 16 Dex is a 21 AC, but that's pushing the stats a bit (18 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con).

Even at level 2, you still can't afford a suit of full plate with WBL.

[Coidzor]

+1 weapons are only good as an intermediate step to something good being done with 'em anyway. As magic weapon can be used in a pinch if it's necessary for something before then, usually anyway.

[Another_Poet]

Ericgrau, you just made this the first ever thread that I have bookmarked.

Thank you!