Eldritch blast full attack?

[Morph Bark]

Just a quick question really: can you use eldritch blast to make a full attack, or is using it always a standard action?

[sofawall]

I will be ninja'd.

EDIT: Or not.

Always Standard, unless you use the Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic.

[true_shinken]

I will be ninja'd.

EDIT: Or not.

Always Standard, unless you use the Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic.

Or the eldritch claws feat from Dragon Magazine.

[Optimystik]

There's another exception - Eldritch Sculptor lets you fire two at once as a full attack.

[mabriss lethe]

There's also a feat from savage species that lets you pull off two spells or spell likes if you have two or more heads. I can't remember the name of the feat, and it's technically 3.0 I believe.

[balistafreak]

Using it for an Eldritch Glaive also lets you use it as a full attack, albeit as a reach melee weapon.

[true_shinken]

Using it for an Eldritch Glaive also lets you use it as a full attack, albeit as a reach melee weapon.

You've been ninja'd so hard it's not even funny.

[Hague]

Wouldn't you get a non-proficiency penalty for using a glaive? (Partially joking)

[balistafreak]

You've been ninja'd so hard it's not even funny.

Actually, I just wanted to make it clear that Eldritch Glaive didn't let you shoot Eldritch Blasts with iteratives without a catch. As worded, it was kind of unclear; it sounded like you could just take the invocation and go pew-pew.

Wouldn't you get a non-proficiency penalty for using a glaive? (Partially joking)

I once had a conversation with someone who wasn't about the subject.

But just to be thorough, it's clearly defined as a "melee touch attack", which has no non-proficiency penalties. Or something like that, I forget the exact RAW behind proficiency and melee touch attacks.

[Rising Phoenix]

Sorry for high jacking the thread. But can you power attack whilst using an Eldritch Glaive? Would make for a cool character...

Thanks

R.P.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorry for high jacking the thread. But can you power attack whilst using an Eldritch Glaive? Would make for a cool character...

Thanks

R.P.

I think by RAW yes, since the invocation mentions it can be used as a normal glaive which you can power attack with (and even get 1:2 damage ratio since it is two handed) but personally I would rule that you can't since it is a blade of pure energy which does damage without exerting force, so more force wouldn't make it deal more damage. (the fact you can weapon finnesse it, influenced my ruling)

[Thurbane]

There's also a feat from savage species that lets you pull off two spells or spell likes if you have two or more heads. I can't remember the name of the feat, and it's technically 3.0 I believe.

There's also the Vestigial Twin trait in DMG II (but it's supposed to be NPC only, and comes with a hefty +5 LA even if it's allowed).

[lsfreak]

I think by RAW yes, since the invocation mentions it can be used as a normal glaive which you can power attack with (and even get 1:2 damage ratio since it is two handed) but personally I would rule that you can't since it is a blade of pure energy which does damage without exerting force, so more force wouldn't make it deal more damage. (the fact you can weapon finnesse it, influenced my ruling)

Really, there's no reason finesse weapons can't the Power Attacked with. See Elven Courtblade, etc. Also, Power Attack refluffed as 'taking effort to only hit weak spots for more damage, thus reducing overall accuracy' makes just as much (if not more) sense than Power Attacks 'me hit harder' (for both finesse weapon, and really, pretty much every weapon). Alternatively, focusing so much mental power into the eldritch glaive that you can't focus as well on your accuracy.

[KillianHawkeye]

The only reason you can't generally Power Attack with finessable weapons is that most of those are light weapons which receive no benefit from Power Attack. Any weapon that isn't light but is still usable with Weapon Finesse (example: the rapier) can Power Attack just fine. Unfortunately, there are extremely few two-handed weapons that are finessable.

[Morph Bark]

There's another exception - Eldritch Sculptor lets you fire two at once as a full attack.

This is the closest thing to what I meant, shame its only for Epic Warlocks and even then its not a complete full attack.

I presume it would be too much then to rule that Warlocks can use their eldritch blast in place of a normal attack then, huh?

[Optimystik]

What, you mean they fire a number of shots equal to their iteratives?

What happens when you tack on Chain, Cone or Doom?

[Knaight]

They get bumped up all the way to tier 2. Maybe.

[Optimystik]

They get bumped up all the way to tier 2. Maybe.

Nah, they just get a lot better at blasting. If dealing lots of damage was all you needed to reach Tier 2, Dungeoncrashers would be that high.

[Knaight]

Nah, they just get a lot better at blasting. If dealing lots of damage was all you needed to reach Tier 2, Dungeoncrashers would be that high.

Dungeoncrashers have the grand total bunch of abilities of damage. Warlocks at least can manage some battlefield control and debuff type stuff. Smashing a large group of enemies with 3 times eldritch blast damage, plus three bonus effects allows you to harm and cripple, and they still have some useful out of combat invocations, though they would probably need quite a few more of them and more invocations known to actually reach tier 2.

[sofawall]

I'd place them almost to the level of Rogues if they had iterative blasts.

[Optimystik]

Dungeoncrashers have the grand total bunch of abilities of damage. Warlocks at least can manage some battlefield control and debuff type stuff. Smashing a large group of enemies with 3 times eldritch blast damage, plus three bonus effects allows you to harm and cripple, and they still have some useful out of combat invocations, though they would probably need quite a few more of them and more invocations known to actually reach tier 2.

If you're iterating with blasts, it will be the same essences applied each time, and many of their debuffs (e.g. blinded, confused, sickened) don't stack.

The other invocations add some minor utility, but not nearly enough to reach the reality-altering heights of tier 2.

I'd place them almost to the level of Rogues if they had iterative blasts.

I'd put them on par with Rogues - they are better at UMD after all.

[Knaight]

If you're iterating with blasts, it will be the same essences applied each time, and many of their debuffs (e.g. blinded, confused, sickened) don't stack.

I'd put them on par with Rogues - they are better at UMD after all.

I was assuming the ability to use new essences every time, but even then tier 2 was facetious. That said, I can see them reaching 3 (really, I'm not sure what the rogue is doing in 4, they have a fair few abilities), as opposed to whatever it is they are currently at. Presumably 5.

[Morph Bark]

I'd place them almost to the level of Rogues if they had iterative blasts.

Wait, warlocks are weaker than rogues normally? What?

[Rising Phoenix]

I think by RAW yes, since the invocation mentions it can be used as a normal glaive which you can power attack with (and even get 1:2 damage ratio since it is two handed) but personally I would rule that you can't since it is a blade of pure energy which does damage without exerting force, so more force wouldn't make it deal more damage. (the fact you can weapon finnesse it, influenced my ruling)

Thank you kindly. I'll use this for a particular NPC if my players come across him. I agree with your line of thinking, but rule of cool for me overrides this.

R.P.

[Knaight]

Wait, warlocks are weaker than rogues normally? What?

Warlocks, from a damage perspective, cap out at 9d6+2* negative levels. Or 11d6, but screw that. Eldritch Glaive improves things a bit, but its still nothing on what a rogue can pull off. TWF alone can get you 60d6+6x strength bonus, craven adds another boost, and I suppose that if you really wanted to you could reroll all the ones for a trivial boost in damage. Add snap kick, you are up to 70d6 (again, max potiential not what is likely), add something like the gnome quickrazor and you are up to at least 80d6. Even with Eldritch glaive, the warlock is only looking at 33d6 sheer damage. Its more likely to hit, because touch attacks are amazing, but on the damage front the warlock is behind.

So, what else do we have. For one, the warlock is more MAD, a rogue needs a high dexterity, passable intelligence, and constitution that is not totally unacceptable, assuming the use of UMD you also want decent charisma. But really, int and con 10 is fine, so dex and cha with UMD basically covers things. A warlock also needs dex and cha, but they need more int to actually get many skills, as they get a small fraction of the rogue skill point total. Rogues are well ahead skill wise.

So, lets look at side perks. The warlock is marginally better at UMD, and makes a good crafter, but they also have a bunch of worthless abilities, including DR Negligible/cold iron and Fast Healing Trivial. The invocations they have are none to impressive either. Shatter is fun, but its not like the ubercharger can't just go through the wall either, and in combat it becomes near useless once humanoids start loading up on magic. There is also fell flight, which is pretty early for all day flight, but not for combat flight. A warlock can scout, I suppose, but a rogue with UMD can do better. There is invisibility, which just about everyone can get.

Now, lets look at the rogue. Evasion, Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, all sorts of beautiful little tricks, and UMD and WBL cover the warlock ones for next to nothing. So, for a Rogue to outclass the warlock in just about every way, the warlock gets the advantages of a tiny bit more cash (whoop-de-doo) and marginally better ranged capabilities. Yay.

*Assuming that eldritch chain and doom don't show up a whole bunch, and they won't if enemies stay spread out, which they should be doing anyways. Wizards and their various cheap fogs, greased areas, etc.

[Runestar]

Warlocks, from a damage perspective, cap out at 9d6+2* negative levels. Or 11d6, but screw that. Eldritch Glaive improves things a bit, but its still nothing on what a rogue can pull off. TWF alone can get you 60d6+6x strength bonus, craven adds another boost, and I suppose that if you really wanted to you could reroll all the ones for a trivial boost in damage. Add snap kick, you are up to 70d6 (again, max potiential not what is likely), add something like the gnome quickrazor and you are up to at least 80d6.

Assuming the rogue can reliably get in a position to full-attack and deal SA damage, that the monster in question is not immune/resistant, that the rogue can hit reliably with his iterative attacks (with 3/4 bab, you can expect to miss with your 2nd/3rd attacks quite frequently), and bearing in mind that dr may still apply.

So I am seeing it as a case of high possible damage, moderate probable damage at best. Though to be fair, a rogue4/swashbuckler16 with daring outlaw and craven also deals similar SA damage.

I see warlock more as a debuffer than a DPS class. Use eldritch chain/cone to lay status effects such as stun or negative lvs on the foes around you. Doom is not recommended as it is harder to aim (more likely to catch your own players in the AoE as well).

[nedz]

Eldritch Glaive is not a glaive in the same way that you can't play soccer with a fireball. It is an SLA with a touch attack that has a funny name.

CArc p73 under the heading Weapon Finesse states that you can treat touch spells as light weapons and so you can use this feat.

Aside from the fact that Power Attack is not listed as an eligible feat (CArc again, same page); if you are treating your Eldritch Glaive as a light weapon then you fall foul of the Power Attack rule which says that you cannot add the bonus to a light weapon (other than 2 irrelevant exceptions) PH p98.

I'm not sure about Cleave however ?

A Warlock 20 with Eldritch Chain, A Geater Fell Chasuble and Quicken SLA(Eldrith Blast) would get 2x11d6+4x(11d6/2) which is about 33d6

A Warlock 20 with Eldritch Glaive, A Geater Fell Chasuble and Quicken SLA(Eldrith Blast) would get 4x(11d6) which is about 44d6

They do have other, possibly more useful, battlefield control options and I am ignoring Hellfire options etc.

[true_shinken]

I think by RAW yes, since the invocation mentions it can be used as a normal glaive which you can power attack with (and even get 1:2 damage ratio since it is two handed) but personally I would rule that you can't since it is a blade of pure energy which does damage without exerting force, so more force wouldn't make it deal more damage. (the fact you can weapon finnesse it, influenced my ruling)

No, RAW is actually that you can't. I'm even working on a handbook for melee warlocks because this comes up so often.
The invocation does not mention anywhere it can be used as a normal glaive. It just gives you reach and iteratives based on your base attack bonus, that's about it.
Eldritch glaive is not a weapon. Check Complete Arcane for rules on weapon-like effects; there is a list of weapon-feats that can be applied to them. Power Attack is not of them.
EDIT: damn, ninja'd

Even with Eldritch glaive, the warlock is only looking at 33d6 sheer damage. Its more likely to hit, because touch attacks are amazing, but on the damage front the warlock is behind.

You are ignoring items that boost EB damage (though there are even more that boost SA damage, so I'll leave it at that) and hellfire. With hellfire, Warlock gets A LOT better damage-wise. You are also considering only 3 glaive hits per round; with a bit of multiclassing, you can get 4 easily and extra attacks from Combat Reflexes and Snake's Swiftness. Also, reach. This allos warlocks to perform at lockdown builds.

So, what else do we have. For one, the warlock is more MAD, a rogue needs a high dexterity, passable intelligence, and constitution that is not totally unacceptable, assuming the use of UMD you also want decent charisma. But really, int and con 10 is fine, so dex and cha with UMD basically covers things. A warlock also needs dex and cha, but they need more int to actually get many skills, as they get a small fraction of the rogue skill point total. Rogues are well ahead skill wise.

A warlock should not compete with a Rogue skill-use, obviously. That does not make'em more MAD. Actually, since glaivelocks can be made to care nothing about Cha, they are less mad than Rogues.
Con 10 for a TWF Rogue is fine? I'm sorry, sir. You just failed.

So, lets look at side perks. The warlock is marginally better at UMD,

Marginally? It's one of only two classes that can take 10 on UMD!!

and makes a good crafter, but they also have a bunch of worthless abilities, including DR Negligible/cold iron and Fast Healing Trivial.

Rogues also get bad abilities, like trapsense. Can't see where you are going here.

The invocations they have are none to impressive either. Shatter is fun, but its not like the ubercharger can't just go through the wall either, and in combat it becomes near useless once humanoids start loading up on magic. There is also fell flight, which is pretty early for all day flight, but not for combat flight. A warlock can scout, I suppose, but a rogue with UMD can do better. There is invisibility, which just about everyone can get.

Well... you are wrong. Very, very wrong. A level 1 Warlock with Summon Swarm is devious. 1d6 auto-hit at level 1 is already good, an area affect is even better and it debuffs. Yeah, gets absolutely useless at level 4 or so, but it is a very strong choice for level 1.
Also, Flee the Scene. See the Unseen. Voracious Dispelling. The 24/7 buffs. Warlocks have many very good invocations.

Now, lets look at the rogue. Evasion, Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, all sorts of beautiful little tricks, and UMD and WBL cover the warlock ones for next to nothing. So, for a Rogue to outclass the warlock in just about every way, the warlock gets the advantages of a tiny bit more cash (whoop-de-doo) and marginally better ranged capabilities. Yay.

You forget Warlocks also get UMD, can take 10 on it and that everything a Rogue does can be make with magical items.
Both classes are about equal I believe. A Rogue can even dip Warlock for some goodies and vice-versa. Weirdly enough, both dips are better at 4 levels.
[/QUOTE]

[Zovc]

I think by RAW yes, since the invocation mentions it can be used as a normal glaive which you can power attack with (and even get 1:2 damage ratio since it is two handed) but personally I would rule that you can't since it is a blade of pure energy which does damage without exerting force, so more force wouldn't make it deal more damage. (the fact you can weapon finnesse it, influenced my ruling)

Stop trying to mix logic with my magic!

[lsfreak]

Check Complete Arcane for rules on weapon-like effects; there is a list of weapon-feats that can be applied to them. Power Attack is not of them.

Are you sure this applies? It's NOT a touch spell. It's a spell that happens to include making a melee touch attack (with reach). There is no Range: Touch entry, and is very unlike every other touch spell (in that you never touch anything).
Now, I'm not sure RAW supports applying weapon feats to it anywho. As far as I'm aware, spells and abilities that mimic weapons specifically say if they allow the use of weapon feats with them. Eldritch glaive also says nothing about being an actual weapon. As a houserule, I'd let it apply, because it's far from overpowering, though I might restrict warlock1/awesomeleestuff19 builds.

Marginally? It's one of only two classes that can take 10 on UMD!!

Rogues can too, they just get it 6 levels later. Still very much worth it. In fact, a rogue19/X1 will probably be taking 12 on it, thanks to Savvy Rogue.

Rogues also get bad abilities, like trapsense. Can't see where you are going here.

Rogue's one worthless class feature, which is traded out for Penetrating Strike to hit people immune for half damage. This still triggers Craven, Crippling Strike, etc, and also works on people in Fortification armor or the like.