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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Disagree strongly. I'd rather be using Vitriolic Blast to ignore SR and be satisfied with doing some 30d6 a hit
    My only issue with vitriolic blast is how difficult it makes to quicken/maximize. It is very very good in all other situations, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Unfortunately, as it is a SLA rather than a weapon attack, Combat Expertise does not apply
    While it doesn't work, it doesn't work for a different reason.
    Combat Expertise requires an attack/full attack action. Eldritch Glaive requires a full-round action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Free movement is always a good thing
    And it's already covered in the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    And again, it's not a weapon attack, it's a spell-like ability. It is no more a weapon attack than firing a Scorching Ray at someone.
    Knockdown does not require a weapon attack. It just requires 10 points of damage dealt in melee. The real problem here is that you can't trip with eldritch glaive, so you would need a backup reach weapon to do this. Fortuntately, you don't need a free hand to use invocations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    And most warlocks will be getting Strongheart Vest/Naberious, so your ability to bind another to your crown chakra is still more resources for a negligible gain. If you're gonna do that, simply get The Dead Walk for much the same thing, with more HD of critters allowed.
    And that's not considering that strongheart vest is highly highly debatable.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-12-14 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    When you activate your eldritch claws do you get to apply essences or shapes to them? If you can, can you change them without deactivating your claws? Lastly If you can activate and deactivate your claws as a free action what prevents you from doing that before and after you want to use an eldritch blast? Does it have a once/round limit or similar limitation?

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    @Shneekeythelost

    At what level do you do 30d6 damage every blast?

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    Default Re: Covering your weak spots

    Also bears mentioning under races: Warforged. Con bonus, considerable immunities (which help make up for your crappy Fort save), plus never needing to rest. Also qualifies for certain awesome buffs (Construct Essence, Golem Immunity).

    Plus, ya'know a mecha that flies around shooting lasers, and fighting with a beam sabre glaive.

    Its not all roses though, theres a feat tax (for better armor plating), you're harder to heal, and theres the Cha penalty (but you can live without that).
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    @Shneekeythelost

    At what level do you do 30d6 damage every blast?
    Warlock6/Binder1/HFW3/Legacy Champion10

    Legacy Champion gives 8/10 class feature casting to advance HFW, which gives +2d6/level. It also advances spellcasting, so it continues to advance regular EB.

    Granted, you'll be close to 20 by the time you can consistantly deal 30d6, but even around level 10, you'll be doing close to 14d6 a shot, at will.
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Warlock6/Binder1/HFW3/Legacy Champion10

    Legacy Champion gives 8/10 class feature casting to advance HFW, which gives +2d6/level. It also advances spellcasting, so it continues to advance regular EB.

    Granted, you'll be close to 20 by the time you can consistantly deal 30d6, but even around level 10, you'll be doing close to 14d6 a shot, at will.
    I make that 27d6. 3d6 from warlock, 6d6 from HFW, 16d6 from legacy champion and 2d6 from that EB damage boosting item. DId I miss anything or were you just rounding when you said 30d6?
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-12-15 at 01:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    When you activate your eldritch claws do you get to apply essences or shapes to them?
    Sadly, you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Lastly If you can activate and deactivate your claws as a free action what prevents you from doing that before and after you want to use an eldritch blast? Does it have a once/round limit or similar limitation?
    It has no limitation of the sort, but you would need some kind of action economy breakage to even make this relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Also bears mentioning under races: Warforged.
    Indeed, I think it's relevant. I also think you summed it up well enough.
    Btw, emerald legion is awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I make that 27d6. 3d6 from warlock, 6d6 from HFW, 16d6 from legacy champion and 2d6 from that EB damage boosting item. DId I miss anything or were you just rounding when you said 30d6?
    You're getting it wrong. Hellfire Warlock/Legacy Champion still progresses eldritch blast as normal. So you have the eldritch blast damage of a warlock 17 (you lose 1 level from binder and 2 from legacy champion).
    So it's 8d6 (warlock) + 22d6 (hellfire) = 30d6. And that's without a chasuble, an essence or a warlock's scepter, btw. Oh, and that's three times a round.
    Maximized and quickened? That's 1080 damage from touch attacks and nothing resists hellfire damage. Hell yeah (pun intended).

    EDIT: Updated with Medium-sized mecha warforged.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-12-15 at 05:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Covering your weak spots

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Plus, ya'know a mecha that flies around shooting lasers, and fighting with a beam sabre glaive.
    You're just a more specific flying mecha, then.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    When you activate your eldritch claws do you get to apply essences or shapes to them? If you can, can you change them without deactivating your claws? Lastly If you can activate and deactivate your claws as a free action what prevents you from doing that before and after you want to use an eldritch blast? Does it have a once/round limit or similar limitation?
    No essences or shapes on Eldritch Claws, as it just adds your Eldritch Blast damage on to the unarmed strike damage, does not say it lets you fire a Eldritch Blast as part of the attack, just gives a damage bonus.

    And the block for Blast & Claw in the same round is that it is a free action to activate claws, but then they stay until just before the beginning of your next turn(No dismiss action listed). You could, however, blast away and then pop claws and have them on hand threatening the squares around you.

    The limit phrase for the claws is "While your claws exist you make make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons." Then next round the claws fade before your turn, you pop them back and two more claw attacks. Note AOO only possible if you haven't already used two claw attacks for that claw activation.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by phlidwsn View Post
    The limit phrase for the claws is "While your claws exist you make make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons." Then next round the claws fade before your turn, you pop them back and two more claw attacks. Note AOO only possible if you haven't already used two claw attacks for that claw activation.
    I disagree. It lasts one round, maybe I'm missing something?

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Considering how cheesy and convoluted it is, most similarly powerplayed damagers can easily out do that so. . why? : /

    The Battle Jumper beats it, the ubercharger beats it, the incarnum clawmonster beats it, the sneak-attack optimizer beats it, and the wizard certainly beats it.

    Edit: talking about 30d6 pewpew-lock.

    Glaive-lock can lay down some battlefield control potentially.
    Last edited by Mikka; 2010-12-15 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    Considering how cheesy and convoluted it is, most similarly powerplayed damagers can easily out do that so. . why? : /
    The only thing convoluted here is legacy champion progressing hellfire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    The Battle Jumper beats it, the ubercharger beats it
    First of all, remember what JanusJones said and I quoted in the start of the guide: melee warlock is not an uber build. It's ust fun. That said, I don't see why you are putting Battle Jumper and ubercharger separately (as they do exactly the same thing - charge for loads of damage), but a glaivelock has a few advantages over charge builds:
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    • You don't have to charge. This means you can still use eldritch glaive in difficult terrain and against opponents in weird angles.
    • You don't have to jump. That means you can use eldritch glaive in cramped spaces, places where you probably wouldn't be able to charge, much less jump.
    • Glaivelocking is just a lot more awesome. (Take me seriously at your own peril )
    • Increased accuracy. Glaivelocks target touch AC and they don't have to take a major hit to their attack bonus due to Power Attack.
    • Better defenses. The only way a ubercharger can have as much accuracy as a glaivelock is with Shocktrooper, which throws their AC into face down into the dirt. Glaivelocks enjoy overall better AC and have in-class access to miss chance.
    • Versatility. A warlock is useful on other situations. You only need one invocation set for a glaivelock (eldritch glaive); you can use the rest to do lots of stuff, like dispelling, acquiring miss chance, charming, creating undead, weaving baskets underwater, whatever floats your boat.
    • Both normal eldritch blast and hellfire ignore all energy resistances and damage reduction. The only thing you have to worry about is spell resistance.
    • Did I mention it's awesome? Because it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    the incarnum clawmonster beats it, the sneak-attack optimizer beats it
    That I'm pretty sure is incorrect, actually. Specially considering how sneak attack needs special conditions to be triggered and lots of creatures are immune to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    a and the wizard certainly beats it.
    There's not a thing in D&D those pesky smug bastards in their pointy hats can't do, is there? Just leave them be. Wizards are never a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    talking about 30d6 pewpew-lock.
    Miss, you should never use 'pewpew' near melee warlocks. You see, it reminds them of their non-melee cousins and some tend to become, err, unstable with the comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    Glaive-lock can lay down some battlefield control potentially.
    Can he? Because I'm pretty sure that's one thing glaivelocks are not that good at, really. You're limited to attacks of opportunity that deal heavy damage and that's about it.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-12-15 at 08:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Can he? Because I'm pretty sure that's one thing glaivelocks are not that good at, really. You're limited to attacks of opportunity that deal heavy damage and that's about it.
    It's called Chilling Tentacles. Like you said, you only need one invocation for Glaive, the rest of them are free to do whatever.
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    It's called Chilling Tentacles. Like you said, you only need one invocation for Glaive, the rest of them are free to do whatever.
    Ah, that makes sense. But glaivelocks specifically were mentioned, so it got me confused.

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    My turn, first of all i was talking about the 30d6 one pew a day shooting thinging.

    No matter how many dice you're rolling just rolling an attack roll and X amounts of dice isn't very fun in my book.

    That I'm pretty sure is incorrect, actually. Specially considering how sneak attack needs special conditions to be triggered and lots of creatures are immune to it.
    The sneak attack optimizer also has means (multiple usually) to ascertain these triggers, otherwise, just more fun and teamwork. Immune to sneak attack? theres a class feature that fixes that problem, penetrating strike or something like that.

    Miss, you should never use 'pewpew' near melee warlocks. You see, it reminds them of their non-melee cousins and some tend to become, err, unstable with the comparison.
    {Scrubbed}

    Can he? Because I'm pretty sure that's one thing glaivelocks are not that good at, really. You're limited to attacks of opportunity that deal heavy damage and that's about it.
    Get reach, take the standstill feat, (improved trip?), a martial stance for Thicket of blades. sure he can.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2010-12-15 at 11:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    My turn, first of all i was talking about the 30d6 one pew a day shooting thinging.

    No matter how many dice you're rolling just rolling an attack roll and X amounts of dice isn't very fun in my book.
    What, you mean like making an attack roll and roll 2d6 +ZOMG that an Ubercharger or optimized sneak attacker is doing? Same concept. Only difference is that Warlock has these other Invocations that he can ALSO use, when he doesn't want to blast things. Which is something Uberchargers and Precision-Based Damage Output really can't say.

    The sneak attack optimizer also has means (multiple usually) to ascertain these triggers, otherwise, just more fun and teamwork. Immune to sneak attack? theres a class feature that fixes that problem, penetrating strike or something like that.
    Lesser Cloak of Displacement. Unless you have Pierce Magical Concealment (which means dipping a level in a casting class just so you can't use the spells so you can qualify), your precision-based damage just got shut down.

    Fortification also would like to irrespectfully thumb it's nose at you.

    Oozes and a few other things which you can't simply fix with Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike.

    Get reach, take the standstill feat, (improved trip?), a martial stance for Thicket of blades. sure he can.
    Nope. Problem with that... an Eldritch Glaive is not a weapon. Stand Still requires Large size. Martial Stance requires Martial Maneuver, which means either dip, or blow a pair of feats on it. And in the end, Eldritch Glaive still isn't a weapon, which means it doesn't work well with anything from ToB.
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Actually stand still neither requires large size or a weapon only the ability to make AoO.

    Thicket of blades does not require a weapon either so it should be usable with eldritch glaive.

    You could take shield block as your maneuver though it will require you to have a shield since all the strikes are out (action interaction problems).
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2010-12-15 at 11:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Lesser Cloak of Displacement. Unless you have Pierce Magical Concealment (which means dipping a level in a casting class just so you can't use the spells so you can qualify), your precision-based damage just got shut down.
    Isn't their a +1 weapon ability that ignores concealment?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    You could take shield block as your maneuver though it will require you to have a shield since all the strikes are out (action interaction problems).
    Doesn't say you need to use a shield for the maneiver.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-12-16 at 12:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Well it does say to use your shield's AC bonus +4 so I guess I assumed you needed a shield to do that, though I guess you could try to pull that you have a shield bonus of 0 I guess.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Isn't their a +1 weapon ability that ignores concealment?
    Nope, not concealment that, despite the 20% mod, is considered Total Concealment.
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Well, Shneekey already adressed most stuff, I'll just complement it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    My turn, first of all i was talking about the 30d6 one pew a day shooting thinging.
    But this is no place for shooting, this is a place for hitting critters in the face. It's the melee warlock handbook for a reason. Sure, attacking once a round your damage output sucks. It hardly matters in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    The sneak attack optimizer also has means (multiple usually) to ascertain these triggers, otherwise, just more fun and teamwork.
    Funny thing is they are spending resources on that. Resources a meleelock can spen on other stuff. Eldritch Glaive + Amulet of Teamwork is dirty cheap and helps people a lot. Few builds are as good in the teamwork aspect as divine casters, and the Eldritch Disciple is one of those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    Immune to sneak attack? theres a class feature that fixes that problem, penetrating strike or something like that.
    Yeah. It also deals half damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikka View Post
    Get reach, take the standstill feat, (improved trip?), a martial stance for Thicket of blades. sure he can.
    Like Shneeky said - doesn't work so well. A dip in Crusader is actually a nice idea, though you can't use strikes with eldritch glaive. A mixed claw/glaive build could do this rather nicely though. It's even mentioned on the guide, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I disagree. It lasts one round, maybe I'm missing something?
    Maybe I'm being overly picky, but while the duration does say it lasts until just before your next turn, it also says "While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons." I was reading that as follows:

    Your turn comes up, you make two claw attacks
    Same round, after your turn, someone provokes an AOO from you. But you've already made two claw attacks with this activation of claws, so you can't make a 3rd claw attack.

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by phlidwsn View Post
    Maybe I'm being overly picky, but while the duration does say it lasts until just before your next turn, it also says "While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons." I was reading that as follows:

    Your turn comes up, you make two claw attacks
    Same round, after your turn, someone provokes an AOO from you. But you've already made two claw attacks with this activation of claws, so you can't make a 3rd claw attack.
    I do think you are being overly picky. The bolded sentence is there to say you get two claw attacks, one as a standard action, two as a full-attack action. I wouldn't rule that way as a DM.

    Guide updated and revised for a few stuff.

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    Quick minor correction I just noticed for you. Improved familiar: You need not be evil to get an imp. You have to be one alignment away on each alignment axis, meaning LN and True Neutral types can get one as well.

    Gotta spread that imp-y goodness
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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiyr View Post
    Quick minor correction I just noticed for you. Improved familiar: You need not be evil to get an imp. You have to be one alignment away on each alignment axis, meaning LN and True Neutral types can get one as well.

    Gotta spread that imp-y goodness
    Awesome! Added to the guide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thiyr View Post
    Quick minor correction I just noticed for you. Improved familiar: You need not be evil to get an imp. You have to be one alignment away on each alignment axis, meaning LN and True Neutral types can get one as well.

    Gotta spread that imp-y goodness
    Double Correction: To be a Warlock in the first place, you need to be Chaotic or Evil. So no, you can't be a LN/TN Warlock, Imp or not. You could be a CN Warlock with a Quasit which is almost as good as an Imp.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    true_shinken's Avatar

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Double Correction: To be a Warlock in the first place, you need to be Chaotic or Evil. So no, you can't be a LN/TN Warlock, Imp or not. You could be a CN Warlock with a Quasit which is almost as good as an Imp.
    Could still be done if you prc out of warlock, though. You don't lose your powers if you cease to be chaotic or evil.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Is there any reason that the Eldritch Claws/Beast Strike Combo wouldn't work with Tome of Battle Manuever Strikes?

    The Mongoose Manuevers could grab multiple attacks. If you could find some way to buff accuracy Avalanche of Blades would make a great way to attack a bunch of times in one turn. Of course getting an adequately high initiator level could be pretty hard since its really hard to RAW qualify for Jade Phoenix.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    Yea I talking about that to somebody right now. It works though avalanche of blades is hard to work in especially because of accuracy concerns.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks

    I'm confused by the Eldritch Glaive wording. It says in the Warlock description that all invocations are spell-like, therefore they take a standard action to use.

    But in Eldritch Glaive's description, it doesn't explicitly state that using the invocation is a full-round action, it only tells you that as a full-round action you may make attacks with it, and that it persists and causes you to threaten the usual areas until your the beginning of your next turn.

    So what type of action is Eldritch Glaive? I can see an argument for both standard, or for Full-Round.

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