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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Very nice class, like the other elemental mages, but how about including the effects of void use (or at least a summary of their effect) so that those who don't own the RCS can use the ability (especially considering the fact that the RCS is out of print if i remember, and is one of the harder books to acquire)?

    Also, I think void strike should improve/gain more uses over time so it stays useful at higher levels (not that negative levels aren't useful, but when you can only use it once per day and are fighting enemies with 30 hit dices, you start using other things instead). Apart from that, this looks pretty balanced and the fluff is both good and consistent.
    The Age of Warrior, a ToB expansion.

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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Thanks for the compliments!

    Since RCS isn't open game content, I don't think I can post it here even though it is out of print. However, Action Points are similar to Void Points and are part of the SRD, I'll add an adaptation outlining how to use the class with Action Points.

    Also, I'll make the Void Strike usable more often by sacrificing spell slots.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-08-18 at 08:38 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
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    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  3. - Top - End - #33
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Just one thing--not sure if anyone else has talked about it.

    Boundless sight has this: "If the void disciple herself is a living creature (which is usually the case), she also illuminates the surrounding area to her own sight."

    You can take that in such a way that if you have an elf and light up the area of 60', the elf can see 120' away. So the sight would extend up to 120', but then the elf could see 240' away. That cheese would mean the whole world is lit up in the eyes of the Void Disciple. Not sure if you care or not, and I don't think it'll really have an in-game effect. Just thought you should know.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    I'm not sure I follow, but you may be slightly misinterpreting the meaning. Lifesight makes living things glow in the sight of the character with the Lifesight feat. So when I say:

    "If the void disciple herself is a living creature (which is usually the case), she also illuminates the surrounding area to her own sight."

    I don't mean she illuminates the surrounding area to the range of her own sight. I mean that she illuminates the surrounding area to her own sight, and not to the sight of others. Functionally, she's the center of a daylight spell that no one can see except for her (and other creatures with the Lifesight feat). An elf void disciple will get more mileage out of this feature than a human. Conversely, it's near-worthless to a dwarf, who can already see clearly in that range thanks to darkvision. But no one gets infinite vision.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-08-19 at 12:19 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

    I apologize for the misconception.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Oh, no worries. In fact, if you can misread it, others can too. Now that I look at it, that whole ability is badly worded and doesn't communicate my intent. I'll change the phrasing to make it easier to understand.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-08-19 at 12:25 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Traditionally, Wisdom as a casting attribute is reserved for divine casters. Since the shugenja already solidly fills the role of a divine elemental caster, I'm trying to avoid that particular piece of intellectual real estate.
    I've DM'd a void disciple before. that's why this was a Shugenja PrC.


    When we take a PrC and convert it to a base class-- we take those double digit abilities and make them available around 1st - 5th level, and then dump a lot of extra stuff on top of it for free so it isn't so empty looking (never mind that the sorcerer is TOTALLY empty aside from all the spontaneous casting goodness of a 2nd tier class).. often those freebies are the prerequisites previously required to earn the PrC to begin with... or gives bonuses for that aspect of choices... the PrC becomes inferior to the new base class.

    Furthermore; The VoidD was a PrC based on a skill like the iajitsu master... --void sense is an advanced skill that the original PrC focused mastery in to access. The things it can do are just too broad and powerful for a base class, IMO.

    --AFB ATM.. his is a full casting spontaneous class... the original PrC cost some casting levels, didn't it?
    --Also; are your metamagic alterations permanently forcing spells to be full round actions, or just raw FREE modifications? (I assume the latter.)
    --In fact, it looks like this class GIVES you 4 free feats in 6 levels, and later ALL spells are still spells and silent spells? This is equal to 6 EPIC feats this class has been given for nothing.
    --AND the ability to give anyone ANY feat without prereqs... whirlwind attack is I think the most feats I can cram in for free... the warhulk is a 10 level PrC that eventually grants the equivalent of whirlwind as a class ability... bam. this guy + a giant sized cleric = smart warhulk at 5th LEVEL.
    --This guy gets all good saves... beguiler only gets good will saves. You should stick to that format as well.
    --voidstrike supernatural enervation that burns spell slots to use? no save, no resist, no countering. sure, it's not a ray; so the voidD will have to enter melee to resolve it... but this is NOT a negative energy effect.. you could x literally anything with this. Assuming 2 levels drained per touch.. you could end literally any creature published this way.


    If you just tacked on voidsense and the free void feats, this would make a fantaxtic alternate sorcerer. keep the d6 HP and the wisdom to ac, lose everything else for the limited style beguiler list.

    My responses are never popular. compare this to the sorcerer and beguiler. that's where it should sit if you feel it shouldn't stay a divine PrC.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Some good points. I haven't had a chance to playtest this class yet (although one of my players may run one beginning next month), so of course balance is an ongoing concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by fil kearney View Post
    I've DM'd a void disciple before. that's why this was a Shugenja PrC.
    Yeah, the original void disciple prestige class is a D&D take on the Isawa Ishiken school from AEG's Legend of the Five Rings RPG. I'm a big L5R fan.

    When we take a PrC and convert it to a base class-- we take those double digit abilities and make them available around 1st - 5th level, and then dump a lot of extra stuff on top of it for free so it isn't so empty looking (never mind that the sorcerer is TOTALLY empty aside from all the spontaneous casting goodness of a 2nd tier class).. often those freebies are the prerequisites previously required to earn the PrC to begin with... or gives bonuses for that aspect of choices... the PrC becomes inferior to the new base class.
    This is a valid concern. It is true that I've granted the various abilities at lower levels than granted by the prestige class. But, mindful of that, I nerfed them too. Do you feel I didn't nerf them hard enough?

    Furthermore; The VoidD was a PrC based on a skill like the iajitsu master... --void sense is an advanced skill that the original PrC focused mastery in to access. The things it can do are just too broad and powerful for a base class, IMO.

    --AFB ATM.. htis is a full casting spontaneous class... the original PrC cost some casting levels, didn't it?
    Yes, the original PrC granted 8/13 casting. I grok the idea that Sense Void is a powerful, exploitable ability that the VoidDPrC sacrifices much to acquire. I mean, 5 lost levels of casting, ZOMG, right? I tried to manage that in two ways:

    First, I nerfed the crap out of the ability: my Sense Void is TONS weaker and more limited than the stock version.

    Second, I gave the arcane Void Disciple much less casting dakka than the divine version. While having a spontaneous list is nice, the arcane Void Disciple's spell list is...esoteric, to say the least. It's really only good at divination and debuff, with a side helping of skill boosts at low levels and SoD at high levels. It can't fly, turn invisible, teleport, summon, heal, control minds, create illusions, blast, tank, or do battlefield control, and it's only OK at buffing allies. Plus it gets fewer spells/day compared to the beguiler.

    You're saying I need to cut more. You may well be right. I think the Void Disciple is the strongest of my five elemental casters, despite its limitations. Its abilities are very open-ended, and IME that always counts for more than big bonuses and handfuls of dice. Do you think it needs a smaller spell list? I could prune 10-12 more spells without ruining the concept.

    --Also; are your metamagic alterations permanently forcing spells to be full round actions, or just raw FREE modifications? (I assume the latter.)
    You're correct: the alterations to Void spells are free.

    The intent is not so much to grant free power as to make the use of Void magic subtle. I considered several other mechanics like contested skill rolls or SLAs, but ultimately those methods slowed down gameplay or dramatically altered the class's core mechanics, while creating conceptual headaches (e.g. "how is your casting hidden when everyone sees rays of magical energy firing from your hands?"). I settled on using the feats because I like my classes to merge closely with existing mechanics. I could just as easily have written a new class feature and said "Subtletly of Void (Ex): When you cast spells, there's no outward sign that you're doing it."

    --In fact, it looks like this class GIVES you 4 free feats in 6 levels, and later ALL spells are still spells and silent spells? This is equal to 6 EPIC feats this class has been given for nothing.
    --AND the ability to give anyone ANY feat without prereqs... whirlwind attack is I think the most feats I can cram in for free... the warhulk is a 10 level PrC that eventually grants the equivalent of whirlwind as a class ability... bam. this guy + a giant sized cleric = smart warhulk at 5th LEVEL.
    --This guy gets all good saves... beguiler only gets good will saves. You should stick to that format as well.
    --voidstrike supernatural enervation that burns spell slots to use? no save, no resist, no countering. sure, it's not a ray; so the voidD will have to enter melee to resolve it... but this is NOT a negative energy effect.. you could x literally anything with this. Assuming 2 levels drained per touch.. you could end literally any creature published this way.
    I get where you're coming from. There's a lot of feature trash thrown in there, and they're all pretty nice. I think this opens up an interesting conversation for us regarding class design philosophy and the power of these features.

    Here's where I'm coming from with class design:
    Spoiler
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    Classes like cleric and sorcerer are bad classes, despite their power. Without real features, they're boring to advance through, and there's no real reason to stay in them, because all their power is in their spell list, and you can easily prc out, keep the spell list, and get more benefits besides.

    Classes like druid, archivist, and dread necromancer are good classes, despite their game balance foibles, because there's always something new to discover as you level up, and there's a real opportunity cost in lost class features if you exit to a prc.
    So, if we're going from base class cleric to base class void disciple, I want to offload some of the power that lived in the spell list and convert it into power that lives in the class features. This increases the fun factor and decreases the incentive to jump ship into a prc. I also want to nerf Sense Void, because without a nerf it's simply broken. Finally, I want to drop the overall power level from a low T1 to a high T3.

    The reduction in spells/day is a real drain in strength from level 4 onward, although a modest one. The narrow spell list is a HARD hit compared to the tier 1 casters that form our frame of reference: that's good because we need to have few if any game-breaking combos available if we're going to live in T3.


    So how about feature power?
    Spoiler
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    I'd consider Void Use, Drawing the Void, and Depth of the Void to be worth about as much as a sorcerer's familiar. The bonuses are small (just +2 per VP, and you can't usually use more than one per roll), and while bigger numbers are nice, more options is better.

    Boundless Sight is worth about a feat, if a strong one. It's better than Lifesense but worse than Mindsight.

    Advanced learning is worth about one spell known per level. In fact, originally drafted the class without advanced learning, and when I added it, I cut one spell of each level from the spells known list to balance it.

    Altering the Course is pretty sweet. I'd say that's probably worth an additional st and 2nd level spell per day (about what it would take to replace it. At higher levels it scales pretty well, so I might weigh out one of the higher-level spells per day as well.

    Subtlety of Void is difficult to assign to a power or cost. In a straight-up combat game like RHoD or WLD, it's worth very little, but in a game that stressed intrigue and social interaction, the ability to cast unobserved would be quite potent. What could you do with this ability on this class?

    Moment of Clarity is also pretty sweet. I'd cost it at a 3rd-level spell per day, better than heroics but not as good as polymorph or greater invisibility. Giving the DM explicit permission to say "no" to specific uses prevents most forms of abuse. I do notice that I included a heck of a lot of uses per day at higher levels. Perhaps we could cut that down to half as many, or use the sack-a-spell-to-gain-a-use mechanic I used with Void Strike? What do you think?

    Sense Void is hoss. Even nerfed, it's still the flagship ability of the class. Cut access to 95% of the Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, and Transmutation schools and call it a day? I did.

    Void Strike is pretty meh in my book. Yeah, it's hard to avoid. But it's not an encounter-ending effect like evard's black tentacles or confusion, and you can't improve it with metamagic. I'd cost it at about a 4th level spell-equivalent.

    It seemed kind of lame to just get it once per day, but I didn't want to scatter another uses-per-day mechanic across the class table, so I allowed the void disciple to effectively spontaneously convert 4th-level spells to this. Since it can already cast spontaneously, I'd value this at 1 additional 4th-level spell known on the spells known list. I actually cut one 4th level spell known when I added the refresh mechanic.

    Notice that there aren't any class features here that compare with, say, the lost 9th-level spell per day at level 20. That's one less wish, or foresight, or sphere of ultimate destruction. You could spend your Void Points for +Win to any roll you please, and it still wouldn't be worth that missing 9th level spell.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Here's where I'm coming from with class design:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Classes like cleric and sorcerer are bad classes, despite their power. Without real features, they're boring to advance through, and there's no real reason to stay in them, because all their power is in their spell list, and you can easily prc out, keep the spell list, and get more benefits besides.

    Classes like druid, archivist, and dread necromancer are good classes, despite their game balance foibles, because there's always something new to discover as you level up, and there's a real opportunity cost in lost class features if you exit to a prc.
    So, if we're going from base class cleric to base class void disciple, I want to offload some of the power that lived in the spell list and convert it into power that lives in the class features. This increases the fun factor and decreases the incentive to jump ship into a prc. I also want to nerf Sense Void, because without a nerf it's simply broken. Finally, I want to drop the overall power level from a low T1 to a high T3.

    The reduction in spells/day is a real drain in strength from level 4 onward, although a modest one. The narrow spell list is a HARD hit compared to the tier 1 casters that form our frame of reference: that's good because we need to have few if any game-breaking combos available if we're going to live in T3.
    I agree with the comment. The problem is Cleric was overpowered so someone was willing to heal. it's a crappy metagame mechanic that was never thought through properly...
    Except L5R provided an awesome balancing factor to the CoD & Druid; the Spirit Shaman and Shugenja. They aren't popular choices, but they are FAR more balanced. Sorcerer.. agreed. anything to bail from that class is an improvement. In that sense, your base class has improved upon that dead class.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    This is a valid concern. It is true that I've granted the various abilities at lower levels than granted by the prestige class. But, mindful of that, I nerfed them too. Do you feel I didn't nerf them hard enough?

    ...

    the original PrC granted 8/13 casting. I grok the idea that Sense Void is a powerful, exploitable ability that the VoidDPrC sacrifices much to acquire. I mean, 5 lost levels of casting, ZOMG, right? I tried to manage that in two ways:

    First, I nerfed the crap out of the ability: my Sense Void is TONS weaker and more limited than the stock version.
    This is my bad: I've yet to reread the core void features... and I did not realize they've been nerfed. My memory tells me voidsense was what mindsight is now.. but also with scry ability on top of it... friggin amazing for recon and anti-sniping. I'll give it a good read and compare your revision for an honest answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post

    Second, I gave the arcane Void Disciple much less casting dakka than the divine version. While having a spontaneous list is nice, the arcane Void Disciple's spell list is...esoteric, to say the least. It's really only good at divination and debuff, with a side helping of skill boosts at low levels and SoD at high levels. It can't fly, turn invisible, teleport, summon, heal, control minds, create illusions, blast, tank, or do battlefield control, and it's only OK at buffing allies. Plus it gets fewer spells/day compared to the beguiler.

    You're saying I need to cut more. You may well be right. I think the Void Disciple is the strongest of my five elemental casters, despite its limitations. Its abilities are very open-ended, and IME that always counts for more than big bonuses and handfuls of dice. Do you think it needs a smaller spell list? I could prune 10-12 more spells without ruining the concept.

    You're correct: the alterations to Void spells are free.

    The intent is not so much to grant free power as to make the use of Void magic subtle. I considered several other mechanics like contested skill rolls or SLAs, but ultimately those methods slowed down gameplay or dramatically altered the class's core mechanics, while creating conceptual headaches (e.g. "how is your casting hidden when everyone sees rays of magical energy firing from your hands?"). I settled on using the feats because I like my classes to merge closely with existing mechanics. I could just as easily have written a new class feature and said "Subtletly of Void (Ex): When you cast spells, there's no outward sign that you're doing it."
    But they CAN fly, turn invisible, teleport, summon, control minds, create illusions, blast, tank, and do battlefield control because it has a free cherry pick from the arcane list at various levels.
    Silent Stilled Invisible grease, summon monsters, solid fog, antimagic sphere, prismatic wall and sphere are just a quick fist full of spells that the VoidD gets to screw NPC's without dipping into the countless splatbooks. By itself, the granted spell upgrades SEEM harmless and flavorful, but I just ran an arena combat where the mage used invisible stinking cloud to DEVASTATING effectiveness against 4 opponents. tag a caster with d4 negative levels and his fort is trashed... then have him try to stumble out of an invisible field of nauseated badness... a second invisible still silenced stinking cloud lets the caster remain totally incapacitated, but totally NOT concealed from missle fire. just stands there helplessly as he and his companions are picked apart. Instead, hold action to drop a stilled silenced invisible prismatic sphere on the charging tank. if he survives to get through to you, ding him for d4 negative levels and walk through the sphere for rinse repeat (no AoO on SU abilities)

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Spoiler
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    So how about feature power?
    I'd consider Void Use, Drawing the Void, and Depth of the Void to be worth about as much as a sorcerer's familiar. The bonuses are small (just +2 per VP, and you can't usually use more than one per roll), and while bigger numbers are nice, more options is better.

    Boundless Sight is worth about a feat, if a strong one. It's better than Lifesense but worse than Mindsight.

    Advanced learning is worth about one spell known per level. In fact, originally drafted the class without advanced learning, and when I added it, I cut one spell of each level from the spells known list to balance it.

    Altering the Course is pretty sweet. I'd say that's probably worth an additional st and 2nd level spell per day (about what it would take to replace it. At higher levels it scales pretty well, so I might weigh out one of the higher-level spells per day as well.

    Subtlety of Void is difficult to assign to a power or cost. In a straight-up combat game like RHoD or WLD, it's worth very little, but in a game that stressed intrigue and social interaction, the ability to cast unobserved would be quite potent. What could you do with this ability on this class?

    Moment of Clarity is also pretty sweet. I'd cost it at a 3rd-level spell per day, better than heroics but not as good as polymorph or greater invisibility. Giving the DM explicit permission to say "no" to specific uses prevents most forms of abuse. I do notice that I included a heck of a lot of uses per day at higher levels. Perhaps we could cut that down to half as many, or use the sack-a-spell-to-gain-a-use mechanic I used with Void Strike? What do you think?

    Sense Void is hoss. Even nerfed, it's still the flagship ability of the class. Cut access to 95% of the Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, and Transmutation schools and call it a day? I did.

    Void Strike is pretty meh in my book. Yeah, it's hard to avoid. But it's not an encounter-ending effect like evard's black tentacles or confusion, and you can't improve it with metamagic. I'd cost it at about a 4th level spell-equivalent.

    It seemed kind of lame to just get it once per day, but I didn't want to scatter another uses-per-day mechanic across the class table, so I allowed the void disciple to effectively spontaneously convert 4th-level spells to this. Since it can already cast spontaneously, I'd value this at 1 additional 4th-level spell known on the spells known list. I actually cut one 4th level spell known when I added the refresh mechanic.


    Notice that there aren't any class features here that compare with, say, the lost 9th-level spell per day at level 20. That's one less wish, or foresight, or sphere of ultimate destruction. You could spend your Void Points for +Win to any roll you please, and it still wouldn't be worth that missing 9th level spell.
    I will restate that a silenced stilled invisible sphere of ultimate destruction is instant doom for anyone casually walking into it. THAT would be worth one 9th per day... this is effectively an 11th level spell being cast.
    I'll have to spend time looking over the above comments.

    I just disagree with the free metamagic feats, even if you change the name and format. the mechanics are the same. 11th level spells.
    I'd ditch that whole idea. the guy is a caster. if you want him to not have any indication, you could redo it as a psion (not a bad option, really)

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by fil kearney View Post
    But they CAN fly, turn invisible, teleport, summon, control minds, create illusions, blast, tank, and do battlefield control because it has a free cherry pick from the arcane list at various levels.
    Hmm, I'm not sure I buy into this. You get five spells from advanced learning: likely a 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level spell. Assuming you pick silent image, fly, greater invisibility, greater teleport, and summon monster IX, you've only got half of those things (and you get them later than other casters do). Advanced learning can't fill all the holes. Do you think it should be removed altogether? I included it chiefly because the definition of "void magic" is so vague that I wanted to give the player the opportunity to add some spells that fit his personal "take" on void magic.

    Silent Stilled Invisible grease, summon monsters, solid fog, antimagic sphere, prismatic wall and sphere are just a quick fist full of spells that the VoidD gets to screw NPC's without dipping into the countless splatbooks.
    The DM has explicit permission to modify spells acquired through advanced learning if he deems them too powerful in conjunction with Void Disciple class features (such as Subtlety of Void). I figured this would prevent any abuses. Do you think I should include instructions or examples on how to do this? I'll concede that a novice DM might not be able to anticipate some of those problems prior to gameplay. Maybe I should just drop the line specifying that spells gained through advanced learning acquire the Void descriptor?

    By itself, the granted spell upgrades SEEM harmless and flavorful, but I just ran an arena combat where the mage used invisible stinking cloud to DEVASTATING effectiveness against 4 opponents. tag a caster with d4 negative levels and his fort is trashed... then have him try to stumble out of an invisible field of nauseated badness... a second invisible still silenced stinking cloud lets the caster remain totally incapacitated, but totally NOT concealed from missle fire. just stands there helplessly as he and his companions are picked apart. Instead, hold action to drop a stilled silenced invisible prismatic sphere on the charging tank. if he survives to get through to you, ding him for d4 negative levels and walk through the sphere for rinse repeat (no AoO on SU abilities)

    I will restate that a silenced stilled invisible sphere of ultimate destruction is instant doom for anyone casually walking into it.
    It seems like most of your complaint is directed towards the Invisible Spell feat. A silenced stilled VISIBLE sphere of destruction isn't appreciably more dangerous than a regular sphere. I can see your position, but how to adjust that? I mean, Invisible Spell is a +0 adjustment feat. Any caster can use it on "awesome spell x" with no adjustment. The fact that you do or do not make characteristic spellcasting motions doesn't have much to do with the threat created when casting "invisible awesome spell x".

    If anything, I think the big advantage of an automatic Still Spell and Silent Spell is that you can cast freely in a grapple or the area of a silence spell, or when bound, gagged, or otherwise unable to cast freely. That's the usual reason people take those feats. Thing is, none of those situations occur frequently, and when they do, cheap teleportation items (like anklet of translocation) are often just as effective at getting you out of trouble. That's why people usually DON'T take Still Spell and Silent Spell. They're rarely useful and cheap alternatives are available.

    THAT would be worth one 9th per day... this is effectively an 11th level spell being cast....I just disagree with the free metamagic feats, even if you change the name and format. the mechanics are the same. 11th level spells.
    Hmm. Ok, I'll agree that the free still and silent is worth the lost 9th-level spell slot. Maybe even the 9th and the 8th combined. But let's acknowledge that not all metamagic feats are created equal. Stilled silent sphere of ultimate destruction is not as good as empowered sphere of ultimate destruction, for example. It's not even as good as heightened sphere of ultimate destruction in an 11th level slot for +2 save DC.

    If you wanted a discreet caster, what mechanic would you use? Perhaps I could do something like this:

    Subtlety of Void: Regardless of the spell components required, your Void spells are very difficult to identify or even notice. You gain Invisible Spell as a bonus feat, ignoring prerequisites, but may only apply it to your Void spells. Additionally, others must succeed on a Spot check at a DC of 10 + your caster level + your Sleight of Hand bonus to notice your spellcasting when you cast an invisible spell, and the DC to identify your invisible spells with Spellcraft is increased by your caster level.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-11-10 at 04:52 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Made a broad series of changes to most class features, intended chiefly to simplify the class so players will have less to keep track of. Void disciple has proven a popular class in my play groups, but it's been keeping players a bit too busy studying their character sheets.

    This is a first draft of a major revision to the void disciple that I will be making in a few months. I'm intending to rewrite the class as a mystery user, rather than an arcane spellcaster. The mechanical change will better communicate the mystical quality of the void, IMO, and sets the void disciple up as an interesting counterpart to the shadowcaster.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Pretty much yeah. Most [epic] feats actually suck pretty bad, so I'm expecting that they won't be very popular choices. Granting Martial Study or Robilar's Gambit to melee-oriented ally, or giving yourself a metamagic feat like Quicken Spell or Sudden Maximize is likely to be a better use of your ability.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Props for a Wisdom-based arcane caster (there just aren't enough of them), even if it's only through the adaptation.

    Have you considered rejiggering the spell progression? At even levels, you gain 4 spell slots, including a new spell level, but at odd levels you only gain a single spell slot. This is particularly egregious at level 15, where you also gain no new class features, and you don't increases your BaB or saves at all.

    I'm intrigued by Ishiken-Do. It looks like it ensures you don't get stifled by immunities, while also reinforcing the class's flavor. I'm concerned about the oddity of energy spells not having the descriptors of their energy damage types, although it's not entirely without precedent (the prismatic spells in core, for example). I don't see any such spells on the spell list (other than using Wish and Limited Wish for such spells), although adding new spells to a spell list is relatively simple these days. Also note a (possibly unintended) consequence, that spells that used to be Force effects are no longer Force effects, and thus do not reliably affect incorporeal targets, nor can they cross the ethereal boundary at all. I'm not even going to think about what happens to Teleportation spells and teleportation- or planar travel-blocking effects.

    How do you regain your spent Void Points? No recovery method is given in No-Thought or any other class features I saw until Self/No Self at 11th level, which would mean you only have a total of 5 void points over the first 10 levels of your career. Even action points (which these can be spent like) are regained anew each level.

    Would Boundless Sight be a problem for light-sensitive Void Disciples (such as Orcs, Drow, and Kobolds)? I'm not sure of the interactions.

    Moment of Clarity has no listed limitations on daily uses, but refers to gaining additional daily uses "every three levels thereafter". I would assume that "thereafter" is referring to after 5th level (the level you gain the ability), although this is unclear due to its last mention being more than a full paragraph earlier. The table indicates that Moment of Clarity can be used only once per day at 5th level, but this should be indicated in the text.

    I'm concerned about the potential for Moment of Clarity's prerequisite-less bonus feats. I can't, offhand, think of anything too ridiculous you can do with it, but it is worrisome. I'm also concerned about actually granting the feat (rather than just its benefits or effects) and how that interacts with the DCFS.

    Why are the important parts of Sense Void's description hidden away in a spoiler? I almost missed it.

    I'm not familiar with most of the spells, so I can't really comment on the spell list.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    Have you considered rejiggering the spell progression? At even levels, you gain 4 spell slots, including a new spell level, but at odd levels you only gain a single spell slot. This is particularly egregious at level 15, where you also gain no new class features, and you don't increases your BaB or saves at all.
    My long-term intent is to dispense with spellcasting completely and rewrite the class as a mystery user, which will give it an entirely different progression. The current class is an interim state designed to make it simpler and more playable for one of my players who is currently playing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    I'm intrigued by Ishiken-Do. It looks like it ensures you don't get stifled by immunities, while also reinforcing the class's flavor. I'm concerned about the oddity of energy spells not having the descriptors of their energy damage types, although it's not entirely without precedent (the prismatic spells in core, for example). I don't see any such spells on the spell list (other than using Wish and Limited Wish for such spells), although adding new spells to a spell list is relatively simple these days. Also note a (possibly unintended) consequence, that spells that used to be Force effects are no longer Force effects, and thus do not reliably affect incorporeal targets, nor can they cross the ethereal boundary at all. I'm not even going to think about what happens to Teleportation spells and teleportation- or planar travel-blocking effects.
    Yep. This is one of the reasons I removed Advanced Learning, as it created simply too many possible unanticipated interactions with Ishiken-do. The weakness against incorporeal creatures is intended, as most of them are undead, and the void disciple has very few ways to interact with such creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    How do you regain your spent Void Points? No recovery method is given in No-Thought or any other class features I saw until Self/No Self at 11th level, which would mean you only have a total of 5 void points over the first 10 levels of your career. Even action points (which these can be spent like) are regained anew each level.
    Void points are regained in full each time you regain your spells. I'll add that into the description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    Would Boundless Sight be a problem for light-sensitive Void Disciples (such as Orcs, Drow, and Kobolds)? I'm not sure of the interactions.
    Good question. I have slightly rewritten the ability now to address this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    Moment of Clarity has no listed limitations on daily uses, but refers to gaining additional daily uses "every three levels thereafter". I would assume that "thereafter" is referring to after 5th level (the level you gain the ability), although this is unclear due to its last mention being more than a full paragraph earlier. The table indicates that Moment of Clarity can be used only once per day at 5th level, but this should be indicated in the text.
    Good suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    I'm concerned about the potential for Moment of Clarity's prerequisite-less bonus feats. I can't, offhand, think of anything too ridiculous you can do with it, but it is worrisome. I'm also concerned about actually granting the feat (rather than just its benefits or effects) and how that interacts with the DCFS.
    What is DCFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    Why are the important parts of Sense Void's description hidden away in a spoiler? I almost missed it.
    Just trying to make the page less of a chore to scroll through.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-09-09 at 09:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    DCFS stands for Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. There are a pair of spells from Fiendish Compendium 1 or 2 (don't remember which) called Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos that effectively let you turn one feat into any other. However, since they do so by making you actually lose a feat and then gain a new feat (rather than some sort of transformative thing), temporarily-granted bonus feats would actually be made into permanent extra feats.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Ah! For those who are interested in the designer's interpretation, my thought is that using the shuffle to switch a temporary feat does not change its duration. Thus, shuffling a feat gained via Moment of Clarity gets you a different feat, but does not extend the one minute duration. You'd have been better off just to pick the feat you wanted in the first place. Any other interpretation quickly leads to NI feats, which can in turn lead to NI hit points, skill points, AC, psionic power points, inspiration points, spell slots, etc. etc. etc. etc..
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    When you say Void Points are used like action points, does that mean if you gain a feat that gives you a new use for your action points, you can use your Void Points in the same way?
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    My inclination would be to say no, because the void disciple gets void points a lot faster than most characters get action points, and anything balanced for a few uses per level might break the game at a few uses per day. Void points are already scary good. Also, I haven't reviewed all of abilities that give you alternate uses for action points to make sure there's nothing broken in there.

    That being said, however, if your DM wants to allow it, go for it. I'd recommend adding such uses one at a time on a trial basis, with the understanding that the option may need to be backed out if it proves unbalancing.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    Updated tables and made minor text corrections.

    I have completed a MAJOR void disciple rewrite which re-envisions the class as a mystery-user, like the shadowcaster. After extensive use of both versions in our gaming group, we feel the mystery-using void disciple better captures the feel and style we're seeking for the class. I tentatively plan to upload the new void disciple and associated mysteries (there are a LOT) on Sunday 7/1, time permitting.
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    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    The original spellcasting version of the void disciple is archived here, for those who prefer it over the mystery-using version.

    Spoiler: Change Log
    Show
    1.0 Original version.
    1.01 Added a list of referenced sources.
    1.02 Added several paragraphs of additional description to the Sense Void feature, defining more precisely how it works and what it can and cannot do.
    1.1 Made several updates to the spell list, pruning less useful spells and adding some more useful ones.
    1.2 Added the Boundless Sight feature to provide a supernatural sense.
    1.3 Added Advanced Learning to increase the flexibility of the spell list.
    1.31 Added restrictions on Subtlety of Void to make it clear that the virtual feats don't interact with prerequisites or metamagic feats.
    1.4 Spread the progression of Subtley of Void out over 12 levels instead of 4.
    1.5 Removed the Elemental Lore feature, which didn't see use in actual gameplay. Sacred and profane bonuses from [void] spells are now converted to competence bonuses, instead of insight bonuses.
    1.6 Removed the Void Strike and Void Suppression features, converting them into spells. Greatly simplified Subtlety of Void. Replaced Void Use and Depth of the Void with No-Thought, which now explicitly copies the action point system. Void points are now tracked as a column on the class table. Made minor edits to Altering the Course, Moment of Clarity, and Self/No Self. Eliminated Advanced Learning.
    1.61 Updated tables, made some minor text corrections.


    Spoiler: Adaptations
    Show
    Void is an intuitive sense, and some may consider the void disciple more appropriately described as a Wisdom-based caster. A Wisdom-based void disciple is better-defended, with a stronger Will save and a better Armor Class through the Empty Mind feature, but will have considerably fewer skill points and will be less versatile.



    GAME RULE INFORMATION
    Void disciples have the following game statistics.

    Abilities: Intelligence is the most important ability for a Void disciple, as it determines how powerful a spell she can cast, how many spells she can cast per day, and how hard those spells are to resist. Wisdom improved a void disciple's Armor Class, while void disciples who use ray spells frequently will appreciate a high Dexterity. A void disciple also benefits from a high Constitution score much as a sorcerer or wizard would. A void disciple who focuses on social interaction may rely on Wisdom and Charisma to support key skills, but with a little forethought, her class features and spells can more than compensate for low skill bonuses.

    Alignment: Any Neutral. Void disciples must maintain some level of detachment from the affairs of the world in order to focus on the infinite.

    Hit Die: d6

    Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special Void Points -0- -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- -6- -7- -8- -9-
    1st
    +0
    +2
    +2
    +2
    Empty mind, ishiken-do, no-thought, subtlety of void
    2
    5 3 - - - - - - - -
    2nd
    +1
    +3
    +3
    +3
    Boundless sight
    2
    5 4 - - - - - - - -
    3rd
    +1
    +3
    +3
    +3
    Altering the course
    2
    5 5 - - - - - - - -
    4th
    +2
    +4
    +4
    +4
    3
    5 5 3 - - - - - - -
    5th
    +2
    +4
    +4
    +4
    Moment of clarity 1/day
    3
    5 5 4 - - - - - - -
    6th
    +3
    +5
    +5
    +5
    Sense void 2/day (physical senses)
    3
    5 5 5 3 - - - - - -
    7th
    +3
    +5
    +5
    +5
    4
    5 5 5 4 - - - - - -
    8th
    +4
    +6
    +6
    +6
    Moment of clarity 2/day
    4
    5 5 5 5 3 - - - - -
    9th
    +4
    +6
    +6
    +6
    4
    5 5 5 5 4 - - - - -
    10th
    +5
    +7
    +7
    +7
    Sense void 4/day (magical senses)
    5
    5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - -
    11th
    +5
    +7
    +7
    +7
    Self/no self, moment of clarity 3/day
    5
    5 5 5 5 5 4 - - - -
    12th
    +6/+1
    +8
    +8
    +8
    6
    5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - -
    13th
    +6/+1
    +8
    +8
    +8
    Void release 1/day
    6
    5 5 5 5 5 5 4 - - -
    14th
    +7/+2
    +9
    +9
    +9
    Sense void 6/day (empathic senses), moment of clarity 4/day
    7
    5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - -
    15th
    +7/+2
    +9
    +9
    +9
    7
    5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 - -
    16th
    +8/+3
    +10
    +10
    +10
    Void release 2/day
    8
    5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 -
    17th
    +8/+3
    +10
    +10
    +10
    Moment of clarity 5/day
    8
    5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 -
    18th
    +9/+4
    +11
    +11
    +11
    Sense void 8/day (mental senses)
    9
    5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
    19th
    +9/+4
    +11
    +11
    +11
    Void release 3/day
    9
    5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4


    CLASS SKILLS (2 + Int mod per level, x4 at 1st level)
    A void disciple's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).



    CLASS FEATURES
    Your spells and class features make you ill-suited for solo roles, but you can be a valuable contributer as a member of a team. You are best suited to tasks that involve negotiating with others or gathering information through divination magic. You are also quite proficient at debuffing foes and enhancing your allies. At higher levels, you can reliably counter enemy spellcasters or even unmake your enemies completely, unraveling their essence.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The void disciple gains proficiency with all simple weapons. She gains no proficiency with armor or shields.


    Spells: A void disciple casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the void disciple spell list (below). When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically gain access to all the spells for that level on the void discipleís spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. If you attempt to cast spells while wearing armor, you suffer an arcane spell failure chance.

    To cast a void disciple spell, you must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a void discipleís spell is 10 + the spell's level + the void discipleís Int mod. Like other spellcasters, a void disciple can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The base daily spell allotment is given in the table above. In addition, you receive bonus spells for a high Intelligence score.

    A void disciple need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that level.

    Empty Mind (Ex): Through kata and meditation, you have learned to clear your mind of fear, desire, and regret, that you may act free from worldly worries. Add your Wisdom bonus to your Armor Class. You lose this bonus whenever you are helpless or immobilized, when you are wearing armor or using a shield, or when you are carrying a medium or heavy load.

    Ishiken-Do: Where more traditional arcanists produce effects using set forms and schools, you draw your power through the mastery and manipulation of Void, the emptiness that fills the space between the elements. Your void disciple spells lose any descriptors they may possess, such as [evil], [good], or [mind-affecting], and gain the [void] descriptor.

    Your necromancy spells manipulate Void and ki, rather than negative energy. Because you are not channeling negative energy, your [void] spells from the necromancy school that would normally have a special effect on undead creatures (e.g. enervation) instead have no effect on undead at all. Effects that provide resistance or immunity to [negative energy] do not defend against your [void] spells.

    Because your spells are not boons from the gods, but rather arcane manipulations of the essence of the universe, your [void] spells that would grant [sacred] or [profane] bonuses grant [competence] bonuses instead.

    No-Thought (Ex): Your conscious mastery of the Void allows you to perform feats that others find inexplicable. You gain a number of void points as shown on the table above, which can be spent just like action points. However, void points are not action points, and if your game also uses action points, you must keep track of your void points and action points separately.

    Each day, when you ready your spells for the day, you also regain all of your spent void points (up to your normal maximum).

    Subtlety of Void (Ex): Void is different from most other arcane magic, used through innate talent rather than gesture and ritual. All of the void disciple's [void] spells may be made invisible, as per the Invisible Spell feat (CS 61).

    The void disciple does not actually gain Invisible Spell, and cannot use this class feature to meet prerequisites that require that feat. Spells modified by Subtlety of Void are not considered to have been modified by a metamagic feat (for example, their casting times are not increased).

    Boundless Sight (Su): Attuning herself to the void, a void disciple of 2nd level or higher perceives the elemental void in all living things. She gains the Lifesense feat (LM 28), ignoring prerequisites. If the void disciple herself is a living creature (which is usually the case), she also illuminates the surrounding area to her own sight. Although others cannot see this illumination (unless they have the Lifesense feat, naturally), she can always "see" as if she was casting bright illumination in a 60-foot radius if she is a Medium or smaller creature (the radius of the illumination doubles for each size category she is larger than Medium, as normal for the Lifesense feat).

    Boundless Sight is a mental sense, not a sight-based sense, and does not interact with other sight-based traits the void disciple may have, such as low-light vision or light sensitivity. It can be used even while blinded.

    In addition to the benefits above, the void disciple can perceive undead, pseudonatural creatures, and outsiders native to the Far Realm if they are within the radius of illumination provided by a living creature. Such creatures appear as blots of darkness that are not illuminated within her lifesight; although she can pinpoint their square, they have total concealment from the void disciple unless she has another means of perceiving them (such as through normal vision, for example).

    Boundless Sight is of no use in locating or observing constructs.

    Altering the Course (Su): Once per day for a single round, a void disciple of 3rd level or higher may spend any number of void points in that round, and can even spend more than one void point to modify a single roll.

    Moment of Clarity (Su): At 5th level, a void disciple can grant an ally the temporary ability to perform any skill or feat once per day. She must use a standard action to touch the target, who either learns a new feat he did not already have (ignoring prerequisites), or learns a skill in which he was untrained, gaining ranks equal to one-half his character level. The effect lasts for one minute.

    The DM must approve any [epic] feats on a case-by-case basis, and may disallow certain [epic] feats, or allow them only on a one-off basis or at specific dramatic moments in the game (fate can be a fickle mistress).

    The void disciple gains an additional use per day of this ability every three levels thereafter.

    Sense Void (Su): At 6th level, a void disciple learns to reach out with her mind and sense the world around her, exploring the unseen layers of reality most people rarely experience. The void disciple enters a coma-like state and projects her consciousness afar, extending her perceptions to observe far-distance places, people, or things. The void disciple determines the maximum distance she can sense by making a Spellcraft check, with the DC determined using the table below. "Line of sight" is always measured from the location of the void disciple's physical body, even if an effect (such as Sense Void itself) is currently enabling her to view areas that are not in her direct line of sight. The void disciple may not sense across planar boundaries.

    Distance DC
    Line of sight
    5
    Up to 1 mile
    15
    Up to 10 miles
    25
    Up to 100 miles
    35
    Up to 1,000 miles
    45

    Spoiler: How it works
    Show
    Sense Void works much like the clairaudience/clairvoyance spell, although it creates a point of perspective instead of a magical sensor. This perspective is not an object and cannot be observed. When sensing, the void disciple places her perspective at a specified location, which must be within range and must be known or obvious to her (although it need not be extremely familiar), or must be adjacent to an object or individual which is known or obvious to her (so, for example, the void disciple could observe "the room on the other side of this door", "the governor of this city", or "my missing house keys", but could not observe "my most dangerous enemy" or "the nearest large treasure"). Once she has selected the locale, she can rotate her perspective in all directions to view the area as desired.

    Repositioning the perspective requires a standard action. The void disciple can reposition her perspective as often as she likes, but the maximum distance she can sense is still constrained by her original Spellcraft check. If her attempt to position or reposition her perspective is unsuccessful for any reason (e.g. the target has been warded against divination, has been polymorphed into a different form, or no longer exists) then her perspective does not move and she is aware that the attempt failed (although she does not learn why). She can try to move her perspective again with her next standard action.

    A void disciple can activate Sense Void as a standard action, twice per day. She may sense for as long as she wishes, but her body is unconscious and helpless until she dismisses the ability. Each level of sensory detail requires both a minimum void disciple level and a minimum number of ranks in the Spellcraft skill to qualify. If the void disciple does not have at least 9 ranks in Spellcraft, she does not gain Sense Void until she acquires the needed ranks.

    Sense Void is a divination (scrying) effect and has the [void] descriptor. It interacts normally with effects that prevent, detect, or fool supernatural divination (scrying) effects. You cannot cast spells while Sense Void is active, except as permitted below.

    At 6th level, a void disciple with at least 9 ranks in Spellcraft can perceive with her physical senses: The void disciple may use her normal senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell) to observe whatever area, person, or thing she directs her attention to. She perceives to the normal limit of her senses as if she were standing where her perspective is located. Tactile and thermal senses are applicable for anything within reach of her perspective. Magically or supernaturally enhanced senses do not function through Sense Void. Local environmental conditions may limit her senses (for example, if the perspective is inside a sealed crate and the void disciple does not have darkvision as an extraordinary ability, then she can't see).

    At 10th level, the void disciple gains two additional uses per day of Sense Void, and if she has at least 13 ranks in Spellcraft, she can extend magical senses: in addition to the senses above, the void disciple can use detect magic and know greatest enemy at will. Using magical senses is difficult; reduce the void disciple's Spellcraft check result by 10 when determining the maximum distance at which she can utilize magical senses (e.g. with a check result of 15, a void disciple could sense with physical senses to a range of one mile and with magical senses within her line of sight).

    At 14th level, the void disciple gains two additional uses per day of Sense Void, and if she has at least 17 ranks in Spellcraft , she can exercise empathic senses: in addition to the senses above, the void disciple can use discern lies, know opponent, and know vulnerabilities at will, and can read emotional states, gaining a +10 circumstance bonus on Sense Motive checks. Using empathic senses is extremely challenging; reduce the void disciple's Spellcraft check result by 20 when determining the maximum distance at which she can utilize empathic senses (e.g. with a check result of 25, a void disciple could sense with physical senses to a range of 10 miles, with magical senses to a range of one mile, and with empathic senses within her line of sight).

    At 18th level, the void disciple gains two additional uses per day of Sense Void, and if she has at least 21 ranks in Spellcraft, she can exert mental senses: in addition to the senses above, the void disciple can use detect thoughts and probe thoughts at will. Using mental senses requires tremendous discipline; reduce the void disciple's Spellcraft check result by 30 when determining the maximum distance at which she can utilize mental senses (e.g. with a check result of 35, a void disciple could sense with physical senses to a range of 100 miles, with magical senses to a range of 10 miles, with empathic senses to a range of one mile, and with mental senses within her line of sight).


    Self/No Self: Upon reaching 11th level, a void disciple can meditate for 5 minutes to regain all spent void points. This ability can be used once per day. You may not spend void points or action points to gain additional daily uses of this ability.

    Void Release (Su): Once per day as a standard action, a void disciple of 13th level or higher can touch an ally to allow that character to use his highest ability score modifier in place of any one lower modifier (target's choice) for one minute.

    The void disciple gains an additional use per day of this ability at 16th and 19th level.


    Spoiler: VOID DISCIPLE SPELL LIST
    Show
    0 Level: daze (PH 217), detect magic (PH 219), guidance (PH 238), know direction (PH 246), know greatest enemy (SC 129), mage hand (PH 249), prestidigitation (PH 264), read magic (PH 269).

    1st Level: aiming at the target (SC 8), backbiter (SC 23), daze monster (PH 217), detect secret doors (PH 220), dispelling touch (PH2 110), identify (PH 243), immediate assistance (CM 108), improvisation (SC 121), karmic aura (CM 108), know opponent (SC 129), mage armor (PH 249), masterís touch (SC 139), moment of clarity (SC 142), omen of peril (SC 149), ray of enfeeblement (PH 269), shield (PH 278), true casting (CM 101), true strike (PH 296), vertigo (PH2 127).

    2nd Level: arcane turmoil (CM 96), augury (PH 202), black karma curse (PH2 103), blade brothers (PH2 103), celerity, lesser (PH2 105), combined talent (CM100), death armor (SC 60), detect thoughts (PH 220), heroics (SC 113), insight of good fortune (PH2 115), know vulnerabilities (SC 129), linked perception (PH2 117), ray of weakness (SC 168), rebuke (SC 170), see invisibility (PH 275), shadow spray (SC 186), share talents (PH2 124), spell immunity, lesser (SC 199), status (PH 284), stay the hand (PH2 126), sure strike (PH2 126).

    3rd Level: alter fortune (PH2 101), anticipate teleportation (SC 13), arcane sight (PH 201), bestow curse (SC 203), blink (PH 206), clarity of mind (SC 46), discern lies (PH 221), dispel magic (PH 223), divination (PH 224), hesitate (PH2 114), karmic backlash (CM 109), mage armor, greater (SC 136), natureís balance (SC 145), nondetection (PH 257), remove curse (PH 270), shadow phase (SC 185), spell vulnerability (SC 200), spellcasterís bane (CM 117), unluck (SC 227), vampiric touch (PH 298), vertigo field (PH2 128), vulnerability (SC 232).

    4th Level: assay spell resistance (SC 17), backlash (SC 23), baleful blink (SC 102), celerity (PH2 105), detect scrying (PH 219), dimensional anchor (PH 221), dismissal (PH 222), enervation (PH 226), finger of agony (CM 104), globe of invulnerability, lesser (PH 236), rebuke, greater (SC 170), ruin delverís fortune (SC 178), sensory deprivation (SC 182), spell enhancer (SC 198), spell immunity (PH 282), stifle spell (PH2 126), subvert planar essence (SC 211), void strike.

    5th Level: arcane fusion (CM 96), blink, greater (SC 32), break enchantment (PH 207), channeled lifetheft (CM 98), contact other plane (PH 212), darkbolt (SC 58), duelward (SC 74), etherealness, swift (PH2 113), karmic retribution (CM 109), magic jar (PH 250), mana flux (PH2 119), nightís caress (SC 147), reciprocal gyre (SC 170), shadow form (SC 183), telekinesis (PH 292).

    6th Level: anticipate teleportation, greater (SC 13), antimagic field (PH 200), banishment (PH 203), bestow curse, greater (SC 27), chasing perfection (PH2 106), commune (PH 211), disintegrate (PH 226), eyes of the oracle (DrM 66), globe of invulnerability (PH 236), legend lore (PH 246), probe thoughts (SC 162), ray of entropy (SC 167), true seeing (PH 296), void suppression.

    7th Level: antimagic ray (SC 14), arcane sight, greater (PH 201), arcane spellsurge (DrM 64), body outside body (CArc 100), condemnation (PH2 107), death dragon (SC 60), destruction (PH 218), etherealness, (PH 227), kiss of draconic defiance (DrM 67), limited wish (PH 248), rebuke, final (SC 170), spell turning (PH 282), vision (PH 298).

    8th Level: arcane fusion, greater (CM 96), celerity, greater (PH2 105), energy drain (PH 226), moment of prescience (PH 255), mysterious redirection (CM 111), polymorph any object (objects only) (PH 263), spell immunity, greater (PH 282), temporal stasis (PH 293), visions of the future (PH2 128).

    9th Level: absorption (SC 6), astral projection (PH 201), foresight (PH 233), hindsight (SC 114), reality maelstrom (SC 168), reaving dispel (SC 169), sphere of ultimate destruction (SC 200), transcend mortality (CM 120), wish (PH 302).


    Spoiler: NEW VOID DISCIPLE SPELLS
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    Void Strike
    Necromancy [void]
    Level: void disciple 4
    Components: S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: 1 living creature
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    With the lightest of touches upon one of your targetís chakras, you draw forth his life energy, claiming the Void within him for yourself.

    You must make a melee touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels. Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). For each negative level bestowed, you gain one Void point (up to your normal maximum) and 5 temporary hit points. The temporary hit points last one hour.


    Void Suppression
    Transmutation [void]
    Level: void disciple 6
    Components: S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: 1 living creature
    Duration: 5 rounds
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    With the lightest of touches upon one of your targetís chakras, you confuse the elements within him, subverting his natural connection to the Void.

    You must make a melee touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject cannot use his ability score modifier for one ability score of your choice, and must use his lowest ability score modifier instead. For example, if you touch a troll with Strength 24 whose lowest ability score is 6, you could force him to use a Strength modifier of -2 instead of his normal modifier of +7. This cannot change a creatureís hit points. Additionally, if the subject has void points, he may not spend them for the duration of this effect. As a full-round action, the subject can attempt a DC 25 Autohypnosis or Concentration check to end this effect.


    Spoiler: NEW VOID DISCIPLE FEATS
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    Extra Void Points [General]
    Your pool of void points is larger than normal.
    Prerequisites: No-Thought class feature
    Benefit: The size of your pool of action points increases by 2.
    Special: You may take this feat more than once. Its effects stack.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-06-01 at 12:58 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  21. - Top - End - #51
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

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    Aug 2009

    Default Re: Void Disciple Base Class [3.5 PEACH]

    For those who are still following this thread, I have created a 5e port of the void disciple, which is now the sorcerer origin void disciple. This class will no longer be updated.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


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