[4e] Psionic classes at epic levels

[Tengu_temp]

I'm pretty sure this was discussed when PHB3 came out, but the book was still fresh back then and I'm sure the CharOp crowd has an established opinion on this issue now.

As we all know, all psionic classes (apart from monks) use the augment system to improve their at-wills instead of having encounter powers. However, unlike any other class in existence, their at-will powers don't grow stronger at level 21, and the new ones available from that point on aren't much more powerful damage-wise than the old ones either. Doesn't this make them subpar when it comes to damage potential at epic levels? Or is there something I'm missing?

[Meta]

I'm pretty sure this was discussed when PHB3 came out, but the book was still fresh back then and I'm sure the CharOp crowd has an established opinion on this issue now.

As we all know, all psionic classes (apart from monks) use the augment system to improve their at-wills instead of having encounter powers. However, unlike any other class in existence, their at-will powers don't grow stronger at level 21, and the new ones available from that point on aren't much more powerful damage-wise than the old ones either. Doesn't this make them subpar when it comes to damage potential at epic levels? Or is there something I'm missing?

None of the psionic classes are capable of any sort of earth-shattering damage, and that's not really their thing. Even the monk spreads damage around and has a pretty heavy minor in controller.

For their at-wills not becoming stronger: I'd say this is mitigated by the fact that they SHOULD be getting pretty awesome at-wills at 17,23,27, etc. The sad case of the matter is that these classes best at-wills are usually very low level and among the best at-wills in the game.

Ardent: two great at-wills at lvl 1 that you may never trade out
Battlemind: Lightning Rush is fantastic and lvl 7.
Psion: Dishearten is an extremely potent debuff and very spammable. Lvl 1

[Blackfang108]

Or is there something I'm missing?

the amount of power points you get vs the average length of a fight.

Also: the fact that you can retrain your at-wills pretty much constantly throughout the character's lifespan. by WotC's logic, you snouldn't have a single level 1 At-will by Epic. By number-crunching, you might as well kee those that have useful 2pp augments, because you'll be able to pop those off all encounter long.

[Tengu_temp]

the amount of power points you get vs the average length of a fight.

Actually, these work to the disadvantage of psionic characters. In order to bring your at-will power to the strength of an at-will power of another character, you need to spend 2 pp. In order to make it as strong as their encounter power, you need to spend 4 or 6 pp. How many pp can you have at level 30? 17? That's not enough to use an epic-level power augmented to full three times. At the same time, everyone else in the party has 4 encounter powers they can use as they please.

I think psionics are really well-designed at heroic and paragon. But at epic they start falling way behind the other classes.

[Kurald Galain]

Three things.

First, the damage you do with a power is mainly dependent on static modifiers and other bonuses. That you do a base of 2d8 instead of 1d8 at epic level isn't all that relevant, because it's 4.5 more damage when you're easily doing 50+ damage per round. Yes, every bit helps, but it's not that big a deal.

Second, not all roles care equally much about maximizing their damage. In particular for controllers it's a very feasible strategy to minimize your damage, and instead focus on conditions.

Third, psionics do have a design issue. Once you're epic level, you can essentially throw an augment-2 power every combat, every round. Several of the level-1 powers become ludicrously unbalanced if you do this, in particular Dishearten and Mind Thrust. While probably not what WOTC intended, one of the most powerful (if boring) ways to play an epic psion is to continuously spam these level-1 at wills.

[Gryndle]

It has already been said, but it is worth repeating:
The three classes affected are a Defender, Controller and Leader. Increasing damage shouldn't be at the top of their list of priorities anyway.

[Blazen]

Dishearten at 2PP gives a penalty to all creatures hit in a burst 1 a penalty to attack equal to your Cha modifier. At level 30 if you started with 18 Cha, and took an ED that boosetd Cha, you would have a +9 Cha mod. This means that at level 30 you can give all those creatures a -9 to attack 8 times an encounter. Alternatively you could take the Godmind ED which gives you 4 more PP. So now it's -8 to attack 10 times an encounter. Oh and this isn't including feats, features, and powers that can restore PP.

[Blackfang108]

Actually, these work to the disadvantage of psionic characters. In order to bring your at-will power to the strength of an at-will power of another character, you need to spend 2 pp. In order to make it as strong as their encounter power, you need to spend 4 or 6 pp. How many pp can you have at level 30? 17? That's not enough to use an epic-level power augmented to full three times. At the same time, everyone else in the party has 4 encounter powers they can use as they please.

And you have 3 'encounter' powers you can use as you please, because you get enough PP at high levels that you can use a augment 2 more than 5 times an encounter. (AFB, so can't check exact number of PP, but I'm pretty sure it's more than 10)

You only use the base at-wills when either: a.) you run out of PP, which'll be quite a ways in, and farther if you use dailys, or 2.) the unaugmented at-will's effect is exactly what you want.

Remember, the Power Point classes are NOT strikers. Damage isn't the primary concern. Effects are.

[Tengu_temp]

I see the point about special effects, and the static bonuses part, but I disagree with the notion that damage is unimportant for non-strikers. Defenders deal only a bit less damage, and can even deal more with a proper build, and it's no coincidence that clerics and warlords, considered to be the best leaders by many, are also the ones with highest damage potential. A character who does no or negligible damage but supports the group with other effects is not a part of 4e's standard party design.

[Blazen]

Except that one of the best Cleric powers is Astral Seal. One of the best Wizard spells is sleep, and one of the best Warlord builds is the Lazylord.

[Kurald Galain]

I see the point about special effects, and the static bonuses part, but I disagree with the notion that damage is unimportant for non-strikers.

We didn't say it was unimportant, we said it was not the top priority. Doing 1d8+modifiers instead of 2d8+modifiers isn't that big a deal for a non-striker.

Since the last two sets of errata hit clerics very hard, I don't think they are a contender for "best leader" any more.

[Blazen]

Eh, I always considered Warlords, especially lazylords, to be the top leader. Being a leader is about more than just healing anyways.