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Thread: Science?
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2010-07-12, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Science?
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and here it is:
Science is a fixture in our modern world. How would you work it into a campaign world, without losing the feel of classic D&D? Someone had to make those water clocks.Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-12, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Science?
Mages make prediction, theories, and test such through MAGIC! In the end, the scientific method is the scientific method. "If I do X, Y happens" type stuffs.
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2010-07-12, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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2010-07-12, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
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- Somerville, MA
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Re: Science?
I imagine that magic would make it a lot harder to test things and get a repeatable outcome.
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2010-07-12, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Elemental Plane of Paper
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Re: Science?
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!"
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2010-07-12, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Ohio (woo.......)
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Re: Science?
...that I have never seen anyone use or buy?
Honestly, I agree with Thrice Dead Cat.Avatar by me.
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2010-07-12, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Tampa, FL
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Re: Science?
By "science" do you mean technology? The two are different concepts.
If you do mean the latter, do what Eberron did - Magic is the power source, Technology is the framework that puts it to use. I have no clue how an elemental functions or how they come to exist, but I know they can make my airship fly and my train run on time.
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2010-07-12, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Science?
Allow me to clarify. By science I mean the accumulation of knowledge by studying nature, using that knowledge to form a hypothesis, testing that hypothesis, making things, not necessarily using magic. That might create technology, but the power source would not be magic, but rather...other sources.
Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-12, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Science?
I imagine that the more sorcerous would be against such, claiming magic to be just that. However, wizards are likely to try to solve that issue. Clerics could go either way. So, much like the RL in general with some people following it, others against it, and others who subscribed to just the idea that "this works."
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2010-07-12, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Tampa, FL
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Re: Science?
Then this might help:
Spoiler
I'd say it's possible to do that in D&D.
(I mean test beliefs by experiment of course, not zombify scientists... though you can do that in D&D too.)
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2010-07-12, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Elemental Plane of Paper
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Re: Science?
Testing of hypothesis and natural laws is probably done as usual, without changing the campaign world much. The existence of Divination spells may preclude the need for testing completely, even. The issue is that technology like that of our world really isn't necessary when magic exist; why would you need to build a steam engine when you can bind elementals to do the same thing but better?
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2010-07-12, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Science?
Not to be snippy, but I was just wondering how you would work it into a campaign, not how it wouldn't work. And because some people don't have magic.
Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-12, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Science?
This, I think, would be my main concern. However, my idea of it is that magic is just another part of the universe, and energy, the energy that makes the substance of atoms perhaps. This energy is much easier to use and manipulate than the real-world equivalent, but when left to its own devices acts in much the same ways.
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2010-07-12, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Science?
Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-12, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Elemental Plane of Paper
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Re: Science?
How much do you want? If you just want a bunch of natural philosophers looking into natural laws, try adding a few societies of such fellows performing research, and maybe occasionally tasking the PCs with quests such as finding rare animal specimens or getting tools/materials they need for experiments. It probably wouldn't affect the world too much.
If you want more of a technology focus though, that would require a bit more work. Do you want trains, guns, and blimps all over the place? That'd likely end up more steampunk than high fantasy, which can be quite fun but is likely lacking that "classic D&D" you're looking for. YMMV.Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
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2010-07-12, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Science?
I don't see this as being a huge issue. DnD can work at a variety of technology levels (Eberron, as already noted, is really high-tech, but with magic instead of nuclear reactors), and since DnD tends to be a storytelling game, and most stories don't span hundreds of years time, a scientific discovery or theory is likely to be no more than a plot device or a MacGuffin.
I mean, you can invent all the electricity and lightbulbs you want, but making them really impact a game is... well, hard at best, pointless at worst.
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Spoiler
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2010-07-12, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Ohio (woo.......)
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Re: Science?
Avatar by me.
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2010-07-12, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- The great state of denial
Re: Science?
If you want to add hard tech while making it feel backwards, go the 40K route.
"Strike the first rune upon the engine's casing employing the chosen wrench. Its tip should be anointed with the oil of engineering using the proper incantation when the auspices are correct. Strike the second rune upon the engine's casing employing the arc-tip of the power-driver. If the second rune is not good, a third rune may be struck in like manner to the first. This is done according to the true ritual laid down by Scotti the Enginseer. A libation should be offered. If this sequence is properly observed the engines may be brought to full activation by depressing the large panel marked "ON".
(rough translation: Smack it with a wrench, douse it in motor oil, and hit the switch.)Last edited by Yukitsu; 2010-07-12 at 11:58 PM.
Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.
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2010-07-13, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Science?
Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-13, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: Science?
Since the topic is science in D&D, this article might be relevant:
The Atomic Theory of the Elemental Planes
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2010-07-13, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Science?
Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-13, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- East of Eden
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Re: Science?
I agree with PiD6 (sp?)
Science and Magic are basically synonymous if you don't have in depth understanding of something.
Wireless internet = divination/magic ball?
semtex = fireball?
The math and science/magic of it all kind of add up to the same results.
Science/magic, like space/time, are the SAME =-O
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2010-07-13, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: Science?
Check out the Ravenloft setting, it probably has the most 'modern' style stuff in there. In one of the books there's actually a class called "learned physician" or something like that. Yeah, a doctor. Another lets you do stuff like specialize in studying chemistry or biology.
Plus there's that Create Device feat, which is always good for a laugh.
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2010-07-13, 02:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Science?
Campaign idea: The scientists (base them on Da Vinci, or Galileo, or whomever), are making the same kinds of discoveries (planets, physical laws of conservation of matter, allowing for transference from different planes or whatever), and the mages' guild doesn't like that they are reducing magic to equations and lectures that normal people can understand, so they are trying to silence the scientists. The church did it when the scientists expressed ideas that went against current church doctrine. What the scientists are doing is changing how people think about the world and about magic, and the mages don't like it.
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2010-07-13, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Corvallis, OR
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Homebrew:
Endless Thanks go to Akrim.elf for the excellent avatar of an antique Gordon-Style Letterpress. With haberdasherical accessory.
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2010-07-13, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Science?
I like that, I like that a lot.
Science is the accumulation of knowledge through the creation of hypothesis to explain phenomena and testing said hypothesis through experimentation. Considering that in D&D that the combination of bat guano and sulphur, plus the right vocalisation and precise hand and arm movements result in, and I quote, "the creation of a ranged spherical energy release with a thermal signature no less then 1850° Kelvin, which can be manifested at specific X,Y, and Z coordinates", I would say magic is a pretty repeatable phenomena in D&D and so can be scientifically analysed.Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2010-07-13 at 02:38 AM.
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2010-07-13, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Science?
It's an interesting idea.
In such a world, I could see senior mages frowning upon items that allow "anyone" to cast a spell in some form: Feather tokens, potions, magic rings, things like that:
"Magic should not be available to the common peasant. Only a trained mage has the wisdom and knowledge to use it wisely and safely. If the gods had wanted the peasants to have magic, they would have made them wizards."
(And don't mention sorcerers to those people).Resident Vancian Apologist
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2010-07-13, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
Re: Science?
I'd just... use a perfectly standard campaign world? Classic D&D doesn't lack science in the campaign world, but in the campaign; it doesn't have it going on onscreen. The focus is generally on combat, travel, conversation, and other things. Now, you could totally run a session where the PCs, say, attempted to puzzle out the non-Euclidean geometry of a recently discovered demiplane, for instance, but that would be a fantasy sci-fi adventure, not a standardized game of Dungeons & Dragons.
Note: Replace "magic" with "electricity" in the above and it still makes precisely as much sense as before.
Once a civilization discovers something that is super extra good for making things work the way that they want them to, pretty much all technology above a certain level of sophistication will tend to be based on that thing, up until a new, even better thing is discovered.
Gears should work just fine in D&D, and some fairly complicated steampunk stuff may even be feasible. Various sources of unlimited energy should make powering it a breeze. But a universe based on the classical elements isn't going to have the same charged particles and whatnot that ours does, so there aren't going to be any electronics. Stuff of that level of sophistication is magical in D&D, and just runs on a completely different paradigm than our tech.
That's funny. I imagine that it would make it easier.
Mimir.net seems to have bunch of in-universe cutting edgewild speculationtheory. There's a whole section on cosmology, even.
But... wizards are scientists. Clerics would be the stand-in for clergy, except that they actually are clergy instead of a stand-in.
I've seen one setting where arcane magic is bad at healing in particular because arcane healing was suppressed by the church for so long. Given that the first person narrator is basically an Artificer, lots of other thaumaturgical considerations are discussed, too.
"Of course the light in a refrigerator stays on when the door is closed. Why wouldn't it? Having it turn off would require an extra enchantment for no added benefit."
"It can be tricky to work out how to most efficiently layer multiple enchantments. Magic resistance tends to best be applied last, obviously..."
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2010-07-13, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: Science?
That is merely judicious application of the scientific method and attempting to put it to use. Like the guy above said, he has no idea how an elemental works, but know they are a reliable power source. Tapping it is the result of experimentation.
For example: A wizard asked the local artisan to make him a fancy new robe, but the guy just took so damned long to make it Ò.Ó
Then he has an idea: I could automatize part of the production!
He goes and researches for a while, and discovers he can modify the Invisible Servant spell to house it on a spider-shaped tiny golem, and that way it'd have a permanent duration and a limited intelligence that allows it to make a single craft check to reproduce any given pattern
Tadaaa! You just made a 200gp work-free loom!
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2010-07-13, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Science?
Well, it depends how magic works, really.
If a powerful being (the World Serpent, as an example) can change the flow of magic, early scientists may be tempted to label it as "completely random" or "supernatural". If, then, magic also influences gravity, the atmosphere, electricity, temperature and so on, these would also be more difficult to study.
On the other hand, you have divination magic. Want to know how fire works? Send Imix a short message! Want to look at bacteria*? Invent Mage's Microscopic Vision! Didn't someone on the forum plan a super computer based on contingencies and divination?
*Bacteria might not exist. Decomposition comes from negative energy, disease from foul vapours and curses.
Still, in the end, magic is an energy source, and it follows a set of laws. Therefore, science can study it, and technology can be based on it.
Spells are technology.Resident Vancian Apologist