Legacy Champion, Bloodlines & Prestige Classes

[aeauseth]

I've seen several builds that use Legacy Champion and/or Bloodlines to extend prestiege classes.

The most egregious is Hellfire Warlock. This is a 3 level prestige class. You can’t (by RAW) exceed 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock. Nor can you exceed 3 levels of prestiege class abilities of a Hellfire Warlock.

The Rules As Written section that backs up my claim is in the Epic Level Handbook page 6. A brief excerpt is:

These rules allow you to go beyond the normal level limit in a
prestige class, but only if it is a ten-level class. Why can’t you
add levels to a prestige class with fewer than ten levels?

This section in the Epic Level Handbook continues to explain why, but I won't discuss the reasons in this post.

I would also submit that you can't use Legacy Champion and/or Bloodlines to exceed the 10 level cap of most prestige classes until you were an Epic character.

There's always an exception to the rule and that is with DM's approval. The ELH states that the DM can create an extended progression for a sub-10prestiege class, however it would seem targeted for Epic characters.

[Jeff240sx]

I've seen several builds that use Legacy Champion and/or Bloodlines to extend prestiege classes.

The most egregious is Hellfire Warlock. This is a 3 level prestige class. You can’t (by RAW) exceed 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock. Nor can you exceed 3 levels of prestiege class abilities of a Hellfire Warlock.

The Rules As Written section that backs up my claim is in the Epic Level Handbook page 6. A brief excerpt is:

These rules allow you to go beyond the normal level limit in a
prestige class, but only if it is a ten-level class. Why can’t you
add levels to a prestige class with fewer than ten levels?

This section in the Epic Level Handbook continues to explain why, but I won't discuss the reasons in this post.

I would also submit that you can't use Legacy Champion and/or Bloodlines to exceed the 10 level cap of most prestige classes until you were an Epic character.

There's always an exception to the rule and that is with DM's approval. The ELH states that the DM can create an extended progression for a sub-10prestiege class, however it would seem targeted for Epic characters.

Here's a can of worms.

Bloodlines say that you add the bloodline "levels" to all classes to determine level-based calculations.
Hellfire warlock says +2d6 damage at each level.

It really isn't a big jump to come to the conclusion that each level of HF Warlock gives you +2d6 damage, and it's a level-based calculation.


You stand on more of a leg with Legacy Champion and your quote - but it simply does not apply to Bloodlines, which specifically trumps the general that you've quoted - or avoids it all together, by not progressing the CLASS, but it's ability.

[Akal Saris]

To quote from bloodlines: "The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected."

The problem as I see it is that level-based abilities is somewhat difficult to define. A fighter gets a bonus feat every other level, but also at 1st, so it's not truly a 'level-based ability,' but rather a repeating instance of gaining a new addition of a class feature.

Is sneak attack level-based or not? It follows a straight progression so it should be level-based, but then again a rogue 5/assassin 1 breaks the normal level progression. I could see the argument that it's not really a level-based ability like spell DCs are. Warlock's eldritch blast (and the hellfire warlock) is the same way - I could easily see either argument working.

As for legacy champion, I agree that it probably does not work to progress a prestige class beyond its maximum. Characters based on that (like war weaver/legacy champion builds) are basically relying on wishful thinking and undefined areas of the rules.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The problem as I see it is that level-based abilities is somewhat difficult to define.

Not at all. Anything that references your level in a calculation is level based: DC 10 + 1/2 level, something every level, etc. Since the hellfire warlock deals +2d6 damage "per hellfire warlock level" it works, but the rogue's sneak attack is increased "at every odd level"--the former is level-based, the latter is simply an ability which follows a pattern.