[3.5] Eldritch Disciple Love?

[Saint GoH]

I'm not sure why I have never seen this class until now, but woah.

AFB, but I recall it grants full spellcasting AND Invocation with a medium BaB, 2 good saves and special "gifts" that can turn you into a tank via DR or a healer by converting Eldritch Blasts into ranged heals. HOLY. FREAKING. CRAP.

This seems like a perfect "do it all" sort of frontliner. Use DMM cheese to set up persistent Divine Power, and use an eldritch glaive to have iterative touch attacks with extreme prejudice. If someone gets injured, your remaining Turns can be converted into a gift of healing for your EB damage. Likely feat intensive for the extra turns, and maybe just a little MAD, but seems viable.

Thoughts? Concerns? Blatant arguments? I may consider playing one at a future game...

[dextercorvia]

You lose 2 levels of cleric casting (One to get in and one at ED1). It isn't bad, and I think it is used in the Ur-Lock. But Ur-Priest makes dual progression work so much better for just about anything. It isn't bad as a dual progression class, but you are probably stronger playing a straight Cleric.

[AtwasAwamps]

you are probably stronger playing a straight Cleric.

Yep. That's pretty much the issue.

[Gerrtt]

Yep. That's pretty much the issue.

Yeah, but that's the same issue that keeps many people from playing anything below tier 2...

[Optimystik]

It's a very fun class. I especially like Healing Blast + Eldritch Chain/Cone to zap the party and be an actually effective combat medic.

EDIT: Also, their Timeless Body doesn't carry the "you still die when your time is up" clause.

[dextercorvia]

Don't get me wrong. I think it could be flavorful and fun, and having the invocations to back you up would be nice. But, the rest of the Warlock's schtick is pretty much useless to a Cleric. It also makes it really difficult to take Hellfire Warlock. You'd have to give up (more) cleric casting to get in, which you've already given up 3 levels of Warlock advancement to get. It also suffers from the fact that Practiced Spellcaster, which helps out in a lot of dual cases is worthless for the Warlock side. And (unless you take Ur-Priest) when you are done with ED, you are left with the same decision as usual. Which class do I advance, and which one do I leave behind. (Unless you have Alt Source Spell, so that you qualify for MT or something).

[Optimystik]

Don't get me wrong. I think it could be flavorful and fun, and having the invocations to back you up would be nice. But, the rest of the Warlock's schtick is pretty much useless to a Cleric. It also makes it really difficult to take Hellfire Warlock. You'd have to give up (more) cleric casting to get in, which you've already given up 3 levels of Warlock advancement to get. It also suffers from the fact that Practiced Spellcaster, which helps out in a lot of dual cases is worthless for the Warlock side. And (unless you take Ur-Priest) when you are done with ED, you are left with the same decision as usual. Which class do I advance, and which one do I leave behind. (Unless you have Alt Source Spell, so that you qualify for MT or something).

Krau Illumian Cleric + Magical Training can qualify for MT without a dip. Or dip in Wizard + Precocious Aprentice and get a free feat - you lose a 3rd-cleric level but still get 9ths and Darks. Either way, you can go into MT after ED and finish up.

[aeauseth]

I play an Eldritch Disciple (level 9 so far) and I find it unique and challenging. And yes I LOVE it too!

Some things to consider:

• Build as Eldritch Glaive melee for max damage or range touch for safety.
• The healing blast is the only Gift of the divine patron that is really any good.
• Eldritch Spellweave is of limited use.
• You loose 2 cleric levels (possibly more) so you probably aren't going to select attack spells.
• You loose 3 warlock levels (possibly more) so you don't do as much damage as a straight warlock. Hombrew feat (Practiced Invoker) can fix this.
• You can attack pretty much every round if you want to. Never a dull moment.
• Consider Cloistered Cleric & Divine Magician. Shield + Luminous Armor + Monk's Belt + Divine Agility can push your AC higher than a fighter's.
• With DMM buffs, don't bother with traditional +AC +characteristics items. Spend your $$$ on boosting your EB damage.
• Hellfire Warlock + Binder can increase your damage, but your Cleric side suffers. At this point your spells are just buffs. Not necessarily a bad thing. A few high level scrolls will keep you flexable.
• Eldritch Glaive is a full round action and as such you may have movement issues. Take Travel Devotion Feat and other items to overcome.

I use my Cleric side for 24 hour DMM buffs, and my Warlock side to deal damage. Works quite well and is LOTS of fun to play.

I've never played a straight DMM Cleric for comparison.

[dextercorvia]

Krau Illumian Cleric + Magical Training can qualify for MT without a dip. Or dip in Wizard + Precocious Aprentice and get a free feat - you lose a 3rd-cleric level but still get 9ths and Darks. Either way, you can go into MT after ED and finish up.

Improved Krau and Magical Training only gets you ability to cast 1st level arcane spells. You'd need sanctum or Precocious anyway. But, if you take Prec. Apprentice, you can drop Improved Sigil (Krau). Something like:

Human CloisteredCleric2/Warlock1/MT2/ED10/MT+5

Gets you 18th level Cleric Casting and 18th level invocations.

For feats you need

HB: Magical Training
1: Precocious Apprentice
3: Improved Krau Sigil
....

Really that was my point. You have to do what amounts to Early Entry Cheese to get full progression of both classes.

[Optimystik]

My mistake, I thought Mag. Training gave you a first-level spell.

Really that was my point. You have to do what amounts to Early Entry Cheese to get full progression of both classes.

How is it cheese? It's hardly game-breaking. It's just a way to get 9ths without being an Ur-Priest (which is infinitely more powerful anyway.)

[Os1ris09]

Honestly I was playing a ED and the best thing about it is the versatility of having both invocations and spells. Use invocations to do battle field control and zap multiple people at once with negative levels is great. Use spells to party buff and self buff and you have the ultimate debuffer/buffer that can be gished. I could be wrong on that though bcuz I am pressed for time and my memory is short so don't exactly quote me on the debuffer/buffer stuff.

To show that ur-priest is better than cleric here we go:


Human
Cloistered Cleric 1/Warlock 4/Ur-Priest 2/E.D. 10/ Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3

Feats:
Human-Able Learner
1-Spell Focus [Evil]
3-Extend Spell
BF- Iron Will (complete scoundrel)
5-Knowledge Devotion
6-Persist Spell
9-DMM Persist

Feats etc etc.... adapt to your liking. But that there is more powerful then the Cleric/Warlock/E.D. build.

[dextercorvia]

How is it cheese? It's hardly game-breaking. It's just a way to get 9ths without being an Ur-Priest (which is infinitely more powerful anyway.)

I don't mean game breaking. I mean that it is a trick to bypass the intended entry into the class. That is the very essence of early entry cheese. I don't have a problem with it personally. But, I don't have a problem with Ur-priest either.

[Optimystik]

Eh, WotC intends lots of things - sword-and-board fighters, clerics that heal in combat and monks with Mobility. It's our job to use their tools and set them straight, I say.

[gorfnab]

Human
Cloistered Cleric 1/Warlock 4/Ur-Priest 2/E.D. 10/ Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3

Actually the fastest way to do this is
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3 - this way you finishing off Hellfire Warlock at level 20 instead of 21.

[Os1ris09]

Actually the fastest way to do this is
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3 - this way you finishing off Hellfire Warlock at level 20 instead of 21.

my bad. I put class's in wrong order. Reason for Cloistered Cleric was for Domain feats for free. Knowledge devotion travel devotion and one other domain of your choice.

[gorfnab]

my bad. I put class's in wrong order. Reason for Cloistered Cleric was for Domain feats for free. Knowledge devotion travel devotion and one other domain of your choice.

The problem with that is that when you become an ex-cleric you loose the domains. I'm not fully sure how this applies to devotion feats gained by swapping out the domain.

[Optimystik]

The problem with that is that when you become an ex-cleric you loose the domains. I'm not fully sure how this applies to devotion feats gained by swapping out the domain.

RAW it doesn't, since feats aren't class features - an interesting, if cheesy, loophole.

[Hague]

Hrm... Is an eldritch blast considered a weapon? Seems like you could use the Holy Warrior reserve feat with War Domain to tack on some extra EB damage if you could...

Devotion feats don't require access to a Domain, they merely require devotion to that Domain, not necessarily the deity that supports it. Granted, if you become evil, you can't cast any good spells anyhow.

[Tinydwarfman]

Hrm... Is an eldritch blast considered a weapon? Seems like you could use the Holy Warrior reserve feat with War Domain to tack on some extra EB damage if you could...

Devotion feats don't require access to a Domain, they merely require devotion to that Domain, not necessarily the deity that supports it. Granted, if you become evil, you can't cast any good spells anyhow.

Touch attacks are considered light weapons.

[Hague]

Cool. Then it would work then. Full attack Glaive with +7-8 on each attack sound nice? You betcha!'


As for the Domain feats, I believe the rules say you can have up to two Domain feats unless you're a cleric and in order to have a third, you must give up access to that domain for spell-casting. This implies that you cannot have four or more domain feats. Presumably, since you've been granted this bonus domain feat as a class feature of your cleric (by giving up your Domain casting CF, you gain a feat instead, which is still a class feature of cleric by proxy) You would then lose the domain feats granted by your deity, but you would not lose your other domain feats that were not part of those granted by your deity (Character level progession or racial feats, for instance)

[Os1ris09]

You are arguing something that isn't even explicitly stated as a class feature. It only says you may "expend" (as per errata "Replace “permanently sacrificing”
with “expending” in the last line of the third paragraph." ) your domain in order to gain the corresponding feat. Since when were feats a class feature outside of the bonus feats given by certain class's. Even then those are only lost through level loss not being an ex-whatever. Example is monk: you do not lose your bonus feats for becoming an ex monk you only lose the "class features" associated with that class such as diamond body.

As RAW what I suggested with the cloistered cleric idea is legal. RAI is up to debate amongst your DM's.

[coffeedragon]

I'm playing a cloistered cleric3/warlock2/eldritch disciple1.
Since Eldritch Blast is considered to be a 1st level spell, Practised Spellcaster allows me to fire off EB's each round to the tune of 3d6 (as a 5th level warlock). Sure I don't get the invocations, but with the magic domain i can use my wand of fireballs and my wand of lightning bolts, and since I've taken extra turning twice, I have 14 turn undead uses to use as ranged healing rays Spiderclimb Invocation keeps me mostly out of harms way

[zugschef]

for those of you, who are interested in playing a glaivelock: the glaivlock mini-guide.

be aware however, that some bits of information in this guide are false. you can easily check what is valid and what is not via this little eldritch glaive wiki.

***

combining sneak attack and eldritch glaive can be powerful:
human with able learner rogue1/warlock1/cloistered cleric3/eldritch disciple10/beguiler1/uss4

get the spell hunter's eye via uss's advanced learning and use divine metamagic to persist it. do the same with divine power.

[kladams707]

EDIT: Also, their Timeless Body doesn't carry the "you still die when your time is up" clause.

Just a quck note.
It might not explicitly have that in the text of the ED. However, it does make a reference to page 37 of the Player's Handbook, in which "Timeless body" does have such a clause.

[Pechvarry]

the ability to apply a huge penalty to an opponent's Will Saves seems really good. Has anyone used ED to exploit that?

EDIT: less than huge penalty. I guess it's "a pretty decent" penalty. If only such a build could obtain some sneak attack to trade in for sickening and frightful strike ambush feats...

[true_shinken]

Seeing as there is some wrong assumptions about weapons and eldritch glaive here, I'll suggest a read of my guide to melee warlocks, in my sig.
Eldritch glaive can get a lot counterintuitive, really.