Suel Arcanamach

[Volomon]

On the handbook guide I notice it says that SUEL ARCANAMACH build is pretty much Gish-light. Ok, what the heck is gish heavy then?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159617

Also I notice that the Suel Arcanamach has some requirements namely Grimoire Arcanamacha, I can easily see my DM shutting me down on this requirement and was wondering how I could go about getting this book that would make it so convenient and easy that a DM would have a hard time saying no.

[Critical]

Fit it in your character backstory?

EDIT: And gish-heavy is just a spellcaster with right PrC's and/or feats and/or equipment.

[dextercorvia]

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/SacredExorcist8 is a classic.

Nearly full BAB, and 18th level casting (Meaning 9ths instead of SA's 5ths).

[Volomon]

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/SacredExorcis8 is a classic.

Nearly full BaB 18th level casting (Meaning 9ths instead of SA's 5ths).

Hmmm nice.

[Keld Denar]

I did a Goliath Suel Arcanamach in a game once, who thought he was a dwarf. He found an ancient Dethek runebook and learned the Arcanamach ways from that. It just needs to be an ancient, long declined civilization, so its adaptable to nearly any setting. The book is just fluff. It can be any form of recorded ancient knowledge from a stone tablet to a magical gem that projects text when you shine a light behind it, to an actual book, but maybe printed on gold leaf or human flesh. There is no required value to the book, so it should be assumed to be priceless to you, since its the source of all of your power.

Basically, its just fluffed as kinda an expedition warrior/mage who does archealogical research into powerful civilizations that have gone into decline. In the world of Greyhawk (the origional core setting) the ancient Sueluise Empire was one of extreme power and decadence (similar to the Netherese in FR) who no longer exist in Greyhawk, although their decendants still uphold some of the same beliefs and traditions (such as tracing bloodlines for purity and nobility). If you do some poking around the internet, you can find more information on the ancient Sueluise if you need fluff or inspiration.

Work with your DM to find or make up a suitable race for your Arcanamach to study. Most DMs love doing things like this, as it becomes a ready source of plot hookage if required.

[Volomon]

Don't suppose anyone can help me figure out what spells I should pick (limited to PHB) using the build layed out above.

I did a Goliath Suel Arcanamach in a game once, who thought he was a dwarf. He found an ancient Dethek runebook and learned the Arcanamach ways from that. It just needs to be an ancient, long declined civilization, so its adaptable to nearly any setting. The book is just fluff. It can be any form of recorded ancient knowledge from a stone tablet to a magical gem that projects text when you shine a light behind it, to an actual book, but maybe printed on gold leaf or human flesh. There is no required value to the book, so it should be assumed to be priceless to you, since its the source of all of your power.

Basically, its just fluffed as kinda an expedition warrior/mage who does archealogical research into powerful civilizations that have gone into decline. In the world of Greyhawk (the origional core setting) the ancient Sueluise Empire was one of extreme power and decadence (similar to the Netherese in FR) who no longer exist in Greyhawk, although their decendants still uphold some of the same beliefs and traditions (such as tracing bloodlines for purity and nobility). If you do some poking around the internet, you can find more information on the ancient Sueluise if you need fluff or inspiration.

Work with your DM to find or make up a suitable race for your Arcanamach to study. Most DMs love doing things like this, as it becomes a ready source of plot hookage if required.

I'm going to bring a few builds to the game, and see what they say. I have a feeling just the trip mechanic by itself will be iffy (that's how new they are), tripping and then tripping every-time someone gets up is going to blow their minds, lol.

[Keld Denar]

Which build? The Sorcadin one?

[Volomon]

Which build? The Sorcadin one?

Ya that one.

[Doc Roc]

Elan
Ardent 10/Slayer 10
BAB 17, ML 20, Dominant ideal
Elan Resilience + Improved Elan Resilience.
Simple, effective, and hugely fun.

Or...
Gish ultra-heavy.

[Keld Denar]

Just the PHB? Hmmmm, too bad, there are lots of good gishy spells in the SpC.

1st
Enlarge Person
Shield
Ray of Enfeeblement (mostly to load in your Spellstoring weapon)
Grease
Alarm
X

2nd
Alter Self
Mirrior Image
Invis
See Invis
Glitterdust
X

3rd
Haste
Fly
Vampiric Touch (again, Spellstoring Weapon)
Greater Magic Weapon
X
X

4th
Polymorph (if legal)
Solid Fog
Dim Door

5th
mostly crap

6th
mostly crap

7th
mostly crap

8th
mostly crap

9th
Shapechange
doesn't matter

Unfortunately, without SpC, there aren't really a lot of good gish spells for the higher level spells known. I mean, you can take normal wizardy stuff, but there isn't that much that really allows you to combine your spells with your blade.

[Doc Roc]

Psi might be a better option if you're looking at near-core only stuffs...

[Volomon]

Just the PHB? Hmmmm, too bad, there are lots of good gishy spells in the SpC.

1st
Enlarge Person
Shield
Ray of Enfeeblement (mostly to load in your Spellstoring weapon)
Grease
Alarm
X

2nd
Alter Self
Mirrior Image
Invis
See Invis
Glitterdust
X

3rd
Haste
Fly
Vampiric Touch (again, Spellstoring Weapon)
Greater Magic Weapon
X
X

4th
Polymorph (if legal)
Solid Fog
Dim Door

5th
mostly crap

6th
mostly crap

7th
mostly crap

8th
mostly crap

9th
Shapechange
doesn't matter

Unfortunately, without SpC, there aren't really a lot of good gish spells for the higher level spells known. I mean, you can take normal wizardy stuff, but there isn't that much that really allows you to combine your spells with your blade.

Ok what spells with the book would you recommend, I imagine I could buy one off Amazon or something. The books are running close to $50-$100 so it's hard for me to include this book.

Also is Shield really better than Mage Armor? Mage Armor lasts 1 hour/level and I think Shield is 1min/level.

[lsfreak]

Ok what spells with the book would you recommend, I imagine I could buy one off Amazon or something. The books are running close to $50-$100 so it's hard for me to include this book.

Also is Shield really better than Mage Armor? Mage Armor lasts 1 hour/level and I think Shield is 1min/level.

The problem with mage armor is that you can fairly easily get actual armor. Twilight mithril chain is the default way (total of 5250gp, needs only Core + either PHB2, MIC, or BoED), and there's other ways too (feycraft thistledown-padded mithral chain is just over 2000gp, from DMG2 and RotW, respectively). Then start tacking on good enhancements, like Fortification or Greater Blurring.

It's much more difficult and costly to get a reliable source of shield bonuses, but the spell is a very easy way.

[Keld Denar]

Also, Shield benefits from Abjurant Champion's Swift Abjuration and Abjurant Armor. Mage Armor, as written being a Conjouration, doesn't. Your DM may adjust this, but then again, he may not. Also, Spellsword gives -10% ASF, which, consequently, is the exact amount you need to reduce a Mithril Chain Shirt down to 0% ASF. Thats QUALITY.

The best book you can pick up is Spell Compendium. Its AMAZING. It has some REALLY good gish spells in it like Whirling Blade (my fav spell), Dragonskin, etc. The rest of the spells are really only a couple here and a couple there. You can get the just just by looking around (for example, Greater Mighty Wallop is EXACTLY the same as Greater Magic Weapon, except it only works on type bludgeoning weapons, and instead of giving +1 enhancement bonuses, it increases the weapon's size. Not worth buying RotD just for that one spell, but thats how it works.

The other 2 major books that have spells are PHBII and Complete Mage. Of those, CMage is probably the best for gishes since it has the Heart of X line and Greater Mirror Image (THE best gish defensive spell EVAR).

[Volomon]

I could have sworn I posted this late night, but maybe it ended up on another thread by accident.

I have access to the books, various books through an old friend however he is a DM and plays constantly. However he's not in this new group I'm playing with, he will allow me to copy pages out of the book with his printer. The question is considering this sorcerer build what spells should I be looking at to copy, and for that matter what feats should I be looking at considering the above build.

Thanks for your help!

[Math_Mage]

I'm going to bring a few builds to the game, and see what they say. I have a feeling just the trip mechanic by itself will be iffy (that's how new they are), tripping and then tripping every-time someone gets up is going to blow their minds, lol.

If it matters, that's not how it works. Standing up from prone provokes an attack of opportunity while still prone, so you can't trip them again.

They're fair game after they get back up, of course.

[Volomon]

If it matters, that's not how it works. Standing up from prone provokes an attack of opportunity while still prone, so you can't trip them again.

They're fair game after they get back up, of course.

Are you sure? Because I thought the attempt to stand was what caused an attack of opportunity, if they are still prone then they can still defend themselves though with a minus penalty, being prone in itself does not cause a AoO. By using your hands/legs to position yourself to get up you leave yourself defenseless, and hence a limb to again trip. That's my take on it but I've never really seen it explained in detail.

[Volomon]

Damn now I need an answer because I don't want to abuse the rules simply for not knowing them in full.

[Amphetryon]

Are you sure? Because I thought the attempt to stand was what caused an attack of opportunity, if they are still prone then they can still defend themselves though with a minus penalty, being prone in itself does not cause a AoO. By using your hands/legs to position yourself to get up you leave yourself defenseless, and hence a limb to again trip. That's my take on it but I've never really seen it explained in detail.

The thing is, until they've successfully stood up, another Trip attack does nothing. There are no extant rules that I'm aware of for 'stacking' Trip attacks, so you'd make a Trip attack, and, because its resolution can't Trip a Prone target, and because the rules to not specifically acknowledge an in-between state from Prone to Standing, your target would successfully get to his feet regardless.

[Volomon]

Guess that makes sense, thanks. Now I just need someone to help me out with some spells that I should copy.

I have access to the books, various books through an old friend however he is a DM and plays constantly. However he's not in this new group I'm playing with, he will allow me to copy pages out of the book with his printer. The question is considering this sorcerer build what spells should I be looking at to copy, and for that matter what feats should I be looking at considering the above build.

Thanks for your help!

For this build:Paladin2/Sorcerer4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/SacredExorcist8

[Keld Denar]

The Spellsword level has to come before the AbjChamp levels, due to prereqs. Just sayin.

Its also rather useful if you can get the first SacEx level fit in ASAP so you can power various Divine and Devotion feats with the TU attempts. Thats one of the main reasons to use SacEx in this case.

Other spells to look at adding would be:

1st
Benign Transposition (SpC)
Orb of Acid (SpC) for your Spellstoring weapon
Ray of Clumsiness (SpC) also for your Spellstoring weapon
Ectoplasmic Armor (SpC) very specific, but an abjuration that grants armor, so its affected by Abjurant Armor.

2nd
Whirling Blade (SpC) for a nice ranged attack
Bladeweave (SpC)
Heart of Air (CMage)

3rd
Dragonskin (Spc)
Heart of Water (CMage)

4th
Greater Mirror Image (PHBII) BEST DEFENSIVE SPELL EVAR
Heart of Earth (CMage)
Trollshape (SpC) non-Polymorph Polymorph spell, power Minor Shapeshift

etc

[true_shinken]

For this build, I'd consider the Smiting Spell feat.

[Postmodernist]

Now I have to think about making a gish...