[SWSE] Minions and followers

[Katana_Geldar]

I have a player who wants to stack these. He has taken levels of Crime Lord and Attract Minion multiple times...then says he plans to have these minions with their own followers ala Clone Wars campaign guide.

The thing is, even though in RAW there is nothing stopping him from doing this...I really don't like the sound of stacking minions with followers. It sounds too overpowered and way too many dice rolls for him to do.

At first I said no, but later compromised and said that the minions still could lead followers, but only unoffically and they could only take heroic levels. I later said that this was the sort of thing I would give only once in a while, and when the situation called for it.

I'm still wondering over my decision, and thinking of taking it back even further by saying the squads have only one attack roll that represents what they did as a squad during the fight.

What do you say?

[Dust]

Three words.
Armies aren't cheap.

[Katana_Geldar]

Oooooh! I like this!

[Binks]

I have a player who wants to stack these.

Always fun.

He has taken levels of Crime Lord and Attract Minion multiple times

Ahh...already hit a snag. Core rulebook pg210: "Normally you can only have one minion with you at a time." Those extra uses of Attract Minion have uses, but not in the 'army following you around' category (more the 'managing your stocks while you're gone' category).

then says he plans to have these minions with their own followers ala Clone Wars campaign guide.

You mean the follower talents? The ones that nonheroic characters (like, say, minions) can't take because they get no talents? Or did he find a way to get followers with feats? (I seem to recall there being a way to gain followers as feats...but it definitely isn't from Clone Wars. And of course you could also cheat and use whatever the feat is from GoI to get a swappable talent...though on second thought I don't think that would work...hmm).

[Katana_Geldar]

Non-heroics can take heroic levels.

[Binks]

*tilts head to the side* Well I suppose that's one possible interpretation. I presume you're saying that the minions start out as nonheroic characters with 3/4 their leader's level but that they can then gain heroic levels.

Of course that interpretation has a ton of problems, not the least of which being that decoupling the minion's level/type from the talent means that they'll catch up in level fast (because exp is a river, and minions share exp normally). I've always handled it as that character being a nonheroic with 3/4 your class level, regardless of their exp (and they just leech exp from the group with their presence).

Otherwise if you're saying that a character that's stated to be a nonheroic X can have heroic levels I'd have to question what it is, precisely, that you think nonheroic means.

[Katana_Geldar]

Yes, that's just it. And it goes on the fact that there are no rules that say you can't do it.

He has agreed to back down somewhat and not go for minions with followers.

The thing is, you can take it one step further. Have those minions take a level of Crime Lord when they qualify and then get their own minions. They don't say you can't.

And it says when it defines non-heroic characters that they can multi-class into heroic.

[Binks]

Yes it does, nonheroics can multiclass to heroics, that's not in debate. But can the nonheroic minions gained from the Crime Lord talent tree ever become anything but nonheroics with 3/4 the level of the crime lord? That's what I don't know. I do know that allowing it opens a massive can of worms, and that keeping it closed (by saying that the minions are always nonheroics with a level equal to 3/4 of the crime lord's) costs nothing. Personally I'd just make that ruling, that immediately kills this potential rule issue.

But really it's not much a rule issue. Max he can pull off is 4 people following him, a minion and their 3 followers. With some abuse of the organization system you can pick up another one, and the droids as equipment rules from SGtD can let you get as many droid followers as you want, but from what you've said he's just using crime lord and clone wars, so he tops out at 4 people following him. Any extra minions with followers aren't allowed along, the book spells that out quite clearly (leaving open the possibility of a GM allowing them to come along, but clearly making the default a no).

3 followers and a minion would allow him to take...2 sets of actions a turn, his and his minion's. His minion could give the follower's actions by giving up his actions, and could potentially grab some feats/talents that allow them all to act at once, but that would require some pretty high levels. More likely is that he ends up being able to move/shoot himself, and have one of the 4 people following him move/shoot...not a huge deal, particularly since they're all going to be lower levels and mostly nonheroic levels...too many rolls? Maybe, but that's his punishment for trying to game the system. It's certainly not going to be OP in any way...he's giving up quite a few talents/feats/credits to get a couple of weak people following him around occasionally firing...yay?

[IdleMuse]

My interpretation of RAW; lit. "The minion is a nonheroic character", indicates he never becomes a heroic character. Crime Lord, as good as it is, is not Leadership, and minions can not gain heroic levels. It's never made clear whether a minion should be controlled by the GM or not; I tend to rule that in encounters, he's player controlled, but the rest of the time I control them, to a lesser or greater extent. Sure, you can order them to do stuff, and as your minion, will probably do it, but they are people too, and have their own agendas and motivations.

As for followers, pretty much the same thing, except they're easier to deal with in encounters. I see no game problem with having both three followers and a minion, what you're gaining in extra turn complexity is what you're losing out on by spending at least four talents on this setup.

What I do see a problem with is heroic minions, in more ways than one.

[Beorn080]

Aye. I haven't played, but from what I can gleam, its sounds as though that once a non-heroic gets a level of heroic, he can no longer be a minion.

Now, he might stick around, assuming he has been treated as more then a meatshield, but I suspect an increase in paygrade will be coming.

[Bharg]

So he's picking a fight with Black Sun?

[Coplantor]

OP, I dont know what kindof game you are running, but havig an army is a rather intresting roleplaying tool, sure, if the character takes the army to every fight it is broken as hell, 5 vs 5000 is not a fair fight. But instead of giving him the army as a combat tool, give it to him as a RP tool, you could move the game to a political/militar level.

[braxsus]

Three words.
Armies aren't cheap.

Additionally through in Personell Management problems...Thwarting hostile takeovers, assaniation attempts,

[The Big Dice]

The thing is, you can take it one step further. Have those minions take a level of Crime Lord when they qualify and then get their own minions. They don't say you can't.

Who controls the minions? If they're NPCs, the problem is solved. As GM you simply choose not to have them take levels in Heroic classes.

If the player insists on controlling them, put bounties on them. Have rival outfits take out contracts on the minions. I've not run a gangster campaign in Star Wars, but I have in other games and they're usually good fun. If a little short.

[Binks]

5 vs 5000 is not a fair fight.

Depends on the 5 and the 5000 in Saga rules :P. But yeah, there's plenty of possible solutions. Rule that the minions can never gain heroic levels to nip it in the bud, let the player have his fun but be prepared to target the minions if you want to see what happens, or just politely tell him the IC and OOC problems (equipment costs, imbalance, boredom for the other players while he takes his long turn, etc) and ask him not to do it for the OCC solution.