Why Pun-Pun Doesn't Work

[Jergmo]

Alright! So, you managed to get your Candle of Invocation. Somehow. I don't know how you did it, but well done!

So, you light your candle, and in a dramatic tone shout, "Pazuzu! Come to me, and fulfill in me the power to ultimately break the universe!"

...

...

That's funny...where's Pazuzu? Why isn't he answering your summons, gosh darnit? You don't have all day.

Oh. Unique creatures aren't obligated to answer the summons of a Gate spell, nor are they under your control through your spell. You probably got off lucky, though, friend. He could have just stepped through and chosen to devour you. Dreadfully sorry.

[NelKor]

You use Pazuzu to get the candle, then gate in Efreet's...

[The Shadowmind]

Going to be ninja'd but, Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu, is how you get the candle, the candle is for the Efreeti

[tyckspoon]

Pazuzu is not being summoned by a Gate spell. He is being summoned by a Paladin reciting his name. Pazuzu's information, in the same writeup that says his attention can be gained by reciting his name, specifically says that he is very helpful to Paladins. Pazuzu is then asked for the Candle of Invocation, which he cheerfully provides by way of his ability to perform a Wish.

And there are something like 6 different valid entry ways to Pun Pun Ascension; the level 1 Paladin summoning Pazuzu is merely the earliest. The other methods range from, IIRC, level 4 to 17.

[nekomata2]

Yeah, you use a knowledge religion check to learn of Pazuzu, then you chant his name to get him to come, since he will come to Paladins. The Wish is for the Candle, and ???, become Pun-Pun.

[Zovc]

That's funny...where's Pazuzu? Why isn't he answering your summons, gosh darnit? You don't have all day.

Oh. Unique creatures aren't obligated to answer the summons of a Gate spell, nor are they under your control through your spell. You probably got off lucky, though, friend. He could have just stepped through and chosen to devour you. Dreadfully sorry.

Friggin' DM fiat! Always attempting to be justified by a ruling!

[Jergmo]

Why would Pazuzu help you break the universe?? I've never seen a Pun-Pun Paladin.

[NelKor]

Because Pazuzu gives wishes to any non evil person who speaks his name as a way to corrupt them, He especially likes paladins.

[Gametime]

Mind, Pazuzu still isn't technically obligated to answer when you call his name three times, but the fluff written in the book is suggestive enough that the DM would either need a good explanation for it or have to admit that it's ordinary fiat.

Of course, if there's anywhere that fiat is justified, it's in stopping the ascension of Pun-Pun, so I doubt many would complain.

Why would Pazuzu help you break the universe?? I've never seen a Pun-Pun Paladin.

Then you haven't seen the latest version of Pun-Pun.

Also, it's assumed that Pazuzu doesn't realize what you'd do with the candle, I think.

[The Glyphstone]

And another hopeful champion against the nefarious forces of TO falls flat...

[Optimystik]

Because Pazuzu gives wishes to any non evil person who speaks his name as a way to corrupt them, He especially likes paladins.

Actually, it's any non chaotic evil person. This is important because a Paladin of Tyranny can call on him without being smote, despite already being evil. (And I believe that's Pun-Pun's earliest ascension build.)

In any case, Pazuzu is just the quickest way of getting the candle, not the only way.

[pingcode20]

Technically, Pazuzu just hands you the key to breaking the universe. A key as simple as a candle of invocation, a petty little 8400gp magic item that is massively overpowered for what it costs.

A little suspicious, maybe, but without knowing ahead of time that this paladin plans to take over the universe with theoretical op shenanigans it's a completely reasonable wish.

[Kesnit]

This may seem like a silly question, but I can't recall ever seeing it answered...

Why is Pun-Pun called "Pun-Pun?" Why not "Blasted Kobold" or the like?

[FoE]

Isn't it generally accepted that Pun-Pun wouldn't actually work in a game and is only a theoretical build?

[Jergmo]

Technically, Pazuzu just hands you the key to breaking the universe. A key as simple as a candle of invocation, a petty little 8400gp magic item that is massively overpowered for what it costs.

A little suspicious, maybe, but without knowing ahead of time that this paladin plans to take over the universe with theoretical op shenanigans it's a completely reasonable wish.

*Scratches head* I'd think he and others would figure it out pretty quickly before you get the chance to become too powerful to be destroyed, though.

[Mewtarthio]

Isn't it generally accepted that Pun-Pun wouldn't actually work in a game and is only a theoretical build?

Oh, yes. Absolutely. You see, Pun-Pun is infinitely powerful. Thus, if he were ever to appear in a serious game, he would inevitably transcend the boundaries of said game and manifest in our own reality, which would be a Very Bad Thing.

[DragoonWraith]

*Scratches head* I'd think he and others would figure it out pretty quickly before you get the chance to become too powerful to be destroyed, though.

Maybe, maybe not. Pun-Pun ascension happens very quickly, and a quick detour to prevent scrying before you really get started is both to be expected, and unlikely to get much notice since it's a common thing to do.

Seriously, just face it: it's rules legal. No one's ever, ever going to do it in-game. It's just TO.

[Crow]

ALSO:

The Candle of Invocation only gives the user the ability to cast the Gate spell. It DOES NOT supply the experience cost required for that specific purpose.

In Addition, any sufficiently ranked diety will have knowledge of what Pun Pun is about to attempt early enough to prevent it, if it is somehow related to the diety's portfolio.

[Math_Mage]

Since Pun-Pun doesn't depend on Pazuzu to work, why does it matter?

[Mystic Muse]

Seriously, just face it: it's rules legal. No one's ever, ever going to do it in-game. It's just TO.

Actually, Somebody on these forums (Wish I could remember who) wrote about a session where one of his players did try to pull off Punpun. However, it was a different method than the level 1 Paladin IIRC.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Oh, yes. Absolutely. You see, Pun-Pun is infinitely powerful. Thus, if he were ever to appear in a serious game, he would inevitably transcend the boundaries of said game and manifest in our own reality, which would be a Very Bad Thing.

...so, who wants to run a PbP game where any level of optimization is allowed?

[Temotei]

Oh, yes. Absolutely. You see, Pun-Pun is infinitely powerful. Thus, if he were ever to appear in a serious game, he would inevitably transcend the boundaries of said game and manifest in our own reality, which would be a Very Bad Thing.

Technically, it's limitless power, isn't it?

Pun-Pun could stop, but he doesn't, and that's it. Limitlessly powerful, but he could stop, which means he's not infinitely powerful?

I dunno. That's awfully technical.

[mrcarter11]

I've seen it done in a game before.. The DM didn't know about it, and one of the players did.. It was entertaining playing with him in the party..

[true_shinken]

Isn't it generally accepted that Pun-Pun wouldn't actually work in a game and is only a theoretical build?

It's not only generally accepted, it's openly stated.
It's been like that ever since he first surfaced.

The Candle of Invocation only gives the user the ability to cast the Gate spell. It DOES NOT supply the experience cost required for that specific purpose.

Someone needs to read how casting from items works...

[Jergmo]

I've seen it done in a game before.. The DM didn't know about it, and one of the players did.. It was entertaining playing with him in the party..

Haha. Any chance you could elaborate on what happened?

[Optimystik]

Isn't it generally accepted that Pun-Pun wouldn't actually work in a game and is only a theoretical build?

Actually, he will work - the game just gets really boring after that.

[Dust]

I've seen it done in a game before..

As have I - or rather, heard the stories about it. It was from a longtime 3.5 optimizer and jerkwad convincing his girlfriend to run him games simply so he could roll out stuff like Pun-Pun and the Emerald Legion.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Isn't it generally accepted that Pun-Pun wouldn't actually work in a game and is only a theoretical build?

It's accepted that Pun-Pun should never be played in a game, but the builds work. It wouldn't be TO if they didn't.

[mrcarter11]

I'm not terribly knowledgeable on how to become pun-pun.. I know more than one method exists. Well we had three players, and in the first session, on of the players used I believe the paladin method of becoming pun-pun. And he went and adventured with us still. At some point, I was around level 7 and pun-pun decided to change me. Somehow I ended up becoming the wish and the third player became the word.. It might sound dull, but was actually a lot of fun

[Optimystik]

As have I - or rather, heard the stories about it. It was from a longtime 3.5 optimizer and jerkwad convincing his girlfriend to run him games simply so he could roll out stuff like Pun-Pun and the Emerald Legion.

I googled Emerald Legion because of you, and this site was the first result.

I got a good laugh. Damn those Swedes!