Why Pun-Pun Doesn't Work

[Criptfeind]

Can anyone link me to the current pun pun build? The only one I have even been able to find is the original. Also does it still work on the crazy snake people?

[Evard]

wait.. pazuzu? aint the the name of the dog(?) on Neighbors from Hell? Hmmmm

lol

[faceroll]

Pun-pun would never be allowed to exist because the Marrush or whatever (the race that gives pun-pun the ability to do whatever he wants) have already ascended to over-deity-hood and are on constant vigil for that sort of thing.

[Lhurgyof]

As have I - or rather, heard the stories about it. It was from a longtime 3.5 optimizer and jerkwad convincing his girlfriend to run him games simply so he could roll out stuff like Pun-Pun and the Emerald Legion.

Wow, what a real jerk. I hope his gf didn't put up with it for long. xD
What's Emerald legion, btw? xD

[Mystic Muse]

Pun-pun would never be allowed to exist because the Marrush or whatever (the race that gives pun-pun the ability to do whatever he wants) have already ascended to over-deity-hood and are on constant vigil for that sort of thing.

It was pointed out in some thread that the ability doesn't actually work on Sarrukhs

[Criptfeind]

No one cares if pun pun works because you can not convince ether side that they are wrong. Also why do most people attack pun pun on the wrong grounds? Go for the rules not the damn NPC reactions.

[Optimystik]

Wow, what a real jerk. I hope his gf didn't put up with it for long. xD
What's Emerald legion, btw? xD

Basically, you take a troll, remove its main weaknesses (i.e. give it fire and acid immunity) to create a mini-tarrasque that won't stay dead, then mass-produce.

[faceroll]

It was pointed out in some thread that the ability doesn't actually work on Sarrukhs

Sarrukh gives a mindless minion the ability minus the line that it can't be used on Sarrukhs. See where this is going?

[Crow]

Someone needs to read how casting from items works...

No, you need to read how Gate works. You can cast the spell from the item just fine. But the use of Gate which you need is a special use and has an XP component. The candle does not provide that XP component (It neither says it does, as the Golem Manuals do, nor is the price adjusted to include an already included XP component.)

[DragoonWraith]

Even if so (don't care to check all of the relevant rules, but I'm skeptical that you've come across the solution to this major problem after so many TO'ers have been over this), Gate's XP cost is only 1,000 XP. This is hardly the end of the world; a level 2 character can afford that as long as he's at least half way to level 3...

[OracleofWuffing]

The Level 1 Pun-Pun build I always see uses a ring of 3 wishes, not a Candle of Invocation. (Ardent, wish PaO on a psicrystal to a viper, wish PaO on yourself to a sarrukh)

Though I would argue that the Candle of Invocation's text, "burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell," means that I'm allowed to cast the gate spell, whatever purposes I'm using it for doesn't matter. Should it say it provides the XP cost? Probably. Should it have a different price? Probably. Should Wizards of the Coast given more diligence to this item, overall? Probably.

[Ranos]

You want to know about Pun-pun, eh ? Let me tell you about that blasted kobold.

There is a rumor, in the darkest circles of the roleplaying community. Says when you've gone deep enough into the world of roleplaying games, there's some kind of initiation ritual. Perhaps you've heard about it. Hell, some of you must already have gone through it. I know you're reading this, you bastards. I won't stay silent anymore.

It all began when my cleric, Elfstar, was raised to the 8th level. That's when my world turned into hell. I was accepted into the coven and went through an intense occult training. I became a priestess and a witch. And the source of our power ? The goddamn Pun-pun. Bastard "ascended", gave himself the "ability to be a god in real life", and now he's toying with us mortals, using occult texts like d&d manuals as the gateway to create his dark servants.

I've been in his thrall for a long, long time. Too long. I've seen things no man should ever see, done horrible things in his name, used terrible spells. But no more. Yesterday, I found my friend, Marcie, dead. They tried to make it look like a suicide, but I could smell the magic lingering in the air. The poor, foolish girl had tried to ascend, just to get back at the DM. She'd had her thief killed the day before, with a poison trap. She was innocent ; to her, it was just a game. But the DM was one of us. We're everywhere. The moment poor Marcie invoked Pazuzu, she was already good as dead. A dominate person later, and she was hanged in her room.

And that's why I'm not going to take it anymore. I'm gonna make the kobold pay, tonight. Maybe I'll take him by surprise. Probably not, but I have to try. Wish me luck.

Pazuzu, pazuzu, pazu-

[sambo.]

Haha. Any chance you could elaborate on what happened?

at my table, attempting to become Pun Pun effectivly summons Pun Pun

so; if anyone tried to introduce a Pun Pun character into any game i was DM'ing, i'd do the following:

after the first Manipulate Form iteration to boost any aspect of the character, they would hear a deafening peal of thunder (make a save or fall flat taking XxX temprary stat damage or something).

after the second iteration, they would be struck by lightning from the heavens (take enough damage to leave them at 1HP, 1Str, 1Dex, 1Con, 1Cha. Wis and Int remain).

if they try a third iteration, they would have effectvly summoned the "real" Pun Pun who arrives, demolishes, disintegrates and discombobulates the insolent PC with the words "There Can Be Only One".

at this point, the character is irreversably and irretrievably dead.

Use of Manipulate Form by PCs is to Pun Pun what the Pazuzu chant is to Pazuzu.

at least, that's how i'd deal with it.

[mrcarter11]

I don't think our DM really knew what was going on.. He is kinda laidback.. But then after a month or so. We had pun-pun, wish, and word all together.. and it was still a lot of fun.

[LibraryOgre]

Dear Ranos: I love you. Despite the biological impossibility, I want to have ten million of your babies. In lieu of that, please accept one (1) Internet.

You want to know about Pun-pun, eh ? Let me tell you about that blasted kobold.

There is a rumor, in the darkest circles of the roleplaying community. Says when you've gone deep enough into the world of roleplaying games, there's some kind of initiation ritual. Perhaps you've heard about it. Hell, some of you must already have gone through it. I know you're reading this, you bastards. I won't stay silent anymore.

It all began when my cleric, Elfstar, was raised to the 8th level.

[Ozymandias9]

Maybe, maybe not. Pun-Pun ascension happens very quickly, and a quick detour to prevent scrying before you really get started is both to be expected, and unlikely to get much notice since it's a common thing to do.

Seriously, just face it: it's rules legal. No one's ever, ever going to do it in-game. It's just TO.

Actually, Pazuzu does make that particular Pun-Pun ascension somewhat questionable: the same source that describes how helpful he is to paladins notes that he generally scrys before he pops up when invoked. If you have scrying safeties up, he might not show. If you don't, he could reasonably learn of your plan.

Not necessarily RAW illegal, but it does make it more questionable than, say, the original druid ascension (editing as I'm writing: I'm told that the original was actually an egotist. Druid was the first I saw).

[Keld Denar]

wait.. pazuzu? aint the the name of the dog(?) on Neighbors from Hell? Hmmmm

Dunno about that, but Pazuzu is the name of Professor Farnsworth's gargoyle in Futurama.

Spoiler

Show

Also relevant is the fact that Pazuzu (also know an Pazrael) is the abyssal lord the south-west wind and of fiendish avians and all things evil and winged.

[Thajocoth]

The reason Pun-Pun doesn't work is because he doesn't have to. He can just sit around all day and let his wishes do the work for him.

[Freegle]

I always thought Pun Pun's use of a familiar was a weak point on his path of ultimate power. Granted it's bonded to its master, but at some point it'll be more intelligent than Pun Pun before he can absorb the stat, what's to stop it from simply saying "No"?
It seemed a more elegant roleplaying fiat than the more 'heavy-handed' DM fiats out there.

This has been got around anyway, with the use of psi-crystals. So it's a moot point.

[BobVosh]

I always thought Pun Pun's use of a familiar was a weak point on his path of ultimate power. Granted it's bonded to its master, but at some point it'll be more intelligent than Pun Pun before he can absorb the stat, what's to stop it from simply saying "No"?
It seemed a more elegant roleplaying fiat than the more 'heavy-handed' DM fiats out there.

This has been got around anyway, with the use of psi-crystals. So it's a moot point.

Why would it? Its master's power is it's power.

Actually, Pazuzu does make that particular Pun-Pun ascension somewhat questionable: the same source that describes how helpful he is to paladins notes that he generally scrys before he pops up when invoked. If you have scrying safeties up, he might not show. If you don't, he could reasonably learn of your plan.

Not necessarily RAW illegal, but it does make it more questionable than, say, the original druid ascension (editing as I'm writing: I'm told that the original was actually an egotist. Druid was the first I saw).

He gains immunity to scrying after a little bit of the ascension, I think.

[Myou]

at my table, attempting to become Pun Pun effectivly summons Pun Pun

so; if anyone tried to introduce a Pun Pun character into any game i was DM'ing, i'd do the following:

after the first Manipulate Form iteration to boost any aspect of the character, they would hear a deafening peal of thunder (make a save or fall flat taking XxX temprary stat damage or something).

after the second iteration, they would be struck by lightning from the heavens (take enough damage to leave them at 1HP, 1Str, 1Dex, 1Con, 1Cha. Wis and Int remain).

if they try a third iteration, they would have effectvly summoned the "real" Pun Pun who arrives, demolishes, disintegrates and discombobulates the insolent PC with the words "There Can Be Only One".

at this point, the character is irreversably and irretrievably dead.

Use of Manipulate Form by PCs is to Pun Pun what the Pazuzu chant is to Pazuzu.

at least, that's how i'd deal with it.

Whereas I just don't allow Manipulate Form in my games.

[WinWin]

pfft. Sarrukh gives ability to familliar. The share spells effect has been ruled to work both ways. The Sarrukh modifies it's familliar, and shares the effect with itself. Share spells ignores type, allowing effects to effect creatures, even when they normally would not. Effectively, the Sarrkh's familliar becomes the focus of the loop. Once even one Sarrukh has a familliar, they can all use it as a focus to skip the restrictions on modifying themselves. Before long, every Sarrukh is the familliar of every other Sarrukh that it is friendly with. They all form a cricle and manipulate form far faster than Pun-Pun ever could. Reaching ascendancy far faster than he ever could. In fact they already have. Pun-Pun is a lie.

[Bodkins Odds]

Okay, I know how to solve the problem! One, don't let Sarrukh exist in your game world. Two, any PC using Manipulate Form causes an Quarut to hunt them down...

...and retroactively remove said PC from the timestream.

[2xMachina]

Pun Pun happens

DM: Ok, you win D&D. Shall we now play a campaign where there is a challenge? Or would you prefer to go home?

Seriously, there is no need to stop Pun Pun. Pun Pun wins. K, bye bye. No point playing the game any more. Start a new game where you're not Pun Pun.

[Yuki Akuma]

How to foil Pun-Pun in one easy step:

1. Don't play Forgotten Realms, you twit.

[sofawall]

The share spells effect has been ruled to work both ways.

Well, see, Pun-Pun uses the rules in the book. Your version uses some house rule. I think Pun-Pun can be considered better than your build, since it actually works with the rules given in the book, the baseline for any TO discussion.

[Bodkins Odds]

I think he was asserting that this was an official WotC ruling, whether this is true I have no idea.

[sofawall]

It isn't in the errata. Seems less than official.

[kamikasei]

Once even one Sarrukh has a familliar, they can all use it as a focus to skip the restrictions on modifying themselves. Before long, every Sarrukh is the familliar of every other Sarrukh that it is friendly with.

Whaaa...? I'd call on Morbo but he's too busy going . I have no idea what this bit is supposed to mean.

[9mm]

You want to know about Pun-pun, eh ? Let me tell you about that blasted kobold.

You sir, are awesome.

How to foil Pun-Pun in one easy step:

1. Don't play Forgotten Realms, you twit.

Always a good rule