Battle Sorceror?

[DrewVolker]

Hey, I resently stumbled apon the battle sorceror from unearthed arcana, and I must say, I am very tempted to give it a try.
For thouse who dont know what it does heres the jist of it.
It increases HD to d8, increases base attack bonus to that of a cleric, removes bluff from the class skill list, and adds intimidate.
It gives them proficience with any light or one handed martial weapon of your picking, and gives prof with light armor (Witch no longer interfiers with spellcasting). All of this, for the cost of subtracting one spell per fay for each spell level and subtracting one spell known for each spell level.
To be honest, I never played a sorceror in tabletop, so I dont know if thats a fair trade or not, but it kinda makes me wanna give the class a try.

My big question(s) would be, is that a good trade off? Also, is there a other class that pulls off warrior-caster better than that?

Thanks in advance (Sorry if I made any typos)

[Kylarra]

It's not worth it. You're losing a lot of power, especially with loss of spells known.

[Fax Celestis]

A battle sorcerer isn't a sorcerer, it's a fighter with a bag of magical tricks. You can make it work, but it's hard, and you generally need to get multipurpose spells.

[Coidzor]

You're better off multiclassing and then taking the Abjurant champion PrC at first opportunity.

[Optimystik]

Just be a Wilder I say. You get all the fun of casting in armor, the same BAB and have actual class features. Oh, and shields too.

You also get both Bluff and Intimidate, instead of one or the other. (not to mention Tumble and Autohypnosis.)

[Private-Prinny]

If you want your sorcerer to be a bit hardier, I'd recommend Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage instead.

You get proficiency (and Weapon Focus) with any martial weapon, and 2 extra HP per level. The only thing you give up is one spell known of your highest level. It's still a bit of a cost, but it's worth it for the type of character that would be considering Battle Sorcerer.

BTW, about the extra 2 HP, it may not seem like much, but it is. Average roll for 1d4 is 2.5, and average roll for 1d8 is 4.5. Notice how the d4 result is 2 lower than the d8 result? The only thing you miss is light armor proficiency, which is done better by spells anyway. It's a much, much better idea.

[Thurbane]

One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

[Private-Prinny]

One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

Suel Arcanamach gives lower level casting power to classes that don't have it. Battle Sorcerer takes casting power away from a class that does have it.

Suel Arcanamach gives you something, Battle Sorcerer takes it away. People tend to focus on the sacrifices rather than the gains, especially when the latter happens to be a lot less valuable.

[Optimystik]

One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

If you really do want to be a gish, you can get all the good points of the Battle Sorcerer (BAB, proficiencies, armor etc.) with Abjurant Champion or Sorcadin, without losing 10 spells known.

If you don't want to be a gish, then you wouldn't benefit from Battle Sorcerer anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

Arcanamach is only ten levels long, so you can do other things with your gishly career.

To be perfectly honest, if you want to be a gish, just play a duskblade: it is so much simpler than Pal 2/Sorc 3/PrC 4/Other PrC 1/Moar PrC 2/Moarer PrC 4/EVEN MOAR PrC 2.

[mrcarter11]

I second fax.. Why do all builds have to look so complicated ..

[DrewVolker]

Thanks for all the good advice guys ;D
You really helped me make a disesion,
I am going to go with normal scorc, nothing special,
I might take the dragon desiple PRC though,
Thanks again everyone.

[Optimystik]

Or a Psywar - who instead of saying for its first 7 levels "Hey guys, you can wear armor and carry a shield now!" says instead "So, who wants free feats?"

[Private-Prinny]

I second fax.. Why do all builds have to look so complicated ..

Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 4-5/Swiftblade 9-10.

BAB +17, casting of a level 16-17 Sorcerer. The last level is interchangeable depending on if you want the Swiftblade capstone or the extra level of spellcasting. It might not get 9th level spells, but the standard Sorcadin only gets one of those anyway (probably Shapechange in most cases). With the Swiftblade capstone, you pretty much have Time Stop with lower slots.

EDIT:

Thanks for all the good advice guys ;D
You really helped me make a disesion,
I am going to go with normal scorc, nothing special,
I might take the dragon desiple PRC though,
Thanks again everyone.

Don't do it! It's even more of a trap than the Battle Sorcerer!

[Zovc]

The biggest problem is that you can get nearly as much as you lose by using Prestige Classes and multiclassing.

The Battle Sorcerer also suffers when multiclassing or prestige classing, because they lose EVERYTHING* they gained and still have to put up with all they lost.

*When taking levels in another class, the HD you would have got from a level in sorcerer doesn't matter. Nor does the BAB. You also don't get all that much for having gained proficiency with Light Armor or one martial weapon.

The biggest advantage Battle Sorcerer gets is being able to cast in light armor, and that's not so special. A dip in Spellsword allows you to wear Padded Armor no questions asked, and you can reduce Arcane Spell Failure on armors by using special materials/enhancements.

You can gain BAB with prestige classes (and if you don't mind losing a little bit of spellcasting oomph, multiclassing), all the while losing essentially nothing from your sorcerer levels.

Prestige Classes to look at: Abjurant Champion, Sacred Exorcist (Essentially gives you 10 levels of Battle Sorcerer+!), and the first level of Spellsword. If you can manage to take 16 levels of prestige classes before level 20, you're probably doing something very right.

[DrewVolker]

What is a good combonation for a gestalt scorc?
Gestalt = Leveling basicly two classes at each level.

[Loren]

If you're interested in the battle sorceror you might want to check out the war mage from complete arcana. Many people poopoo this class, but if you want a character that blasts and wears armour this may be an option.

here's a quick comparision
-WM has same number od spells/day as a normal sorce (except at level 20 according to the SRD), so more than a BS
-full list caster, the WM knows all the spells on its list. Here in lies its biggest issue. It's spells basically all deal direct damage, which excludes the WM from batman style play. However, it does give far more spells known that a reg sorce, let alone a BS. The WM also gains access to some spells of the player's choice, but not many.
-d6 hp, so less than BS
-WM has basically the same skill plus History
-same saves
-WM's BAB only advances at the same rate as a normal sorce
-WM adds into bonus to damage. this can really add up when you're adding +3 or even +4 to your Acid Splashes at first level. (since few of the WM's spells allow saves you don't need to maximize your Cha, although a good dex also helps land those ranged touches)
-WM has a little MAD going on Cha grants spells, int improves damage, and dex helps land hits
-WM does, however, gain some metamagic class features.

Wm certainly isn't the most optimal choice, but it can deliver a similar character to a BS, depending on the direct you want to take it.

edit,
for gestalt mix MW with a sorce (regular or battle) for an ungodly number of spells/day. Probably not optimal, but but I'd love to see a D's recation when you tell him you can cast 10 1st level spell a day at level 1.

edit 2
when it comes to gestalt you need to consider what you want to get out of it. Do you want a tougher character, a more magical, more of the feel you already have? gestalt allows you to either emphasis the focus of your character, or make a character with a wider range of talents.

edit 3
a WM/scout should give you the casting of a sorce, armour, and damage bonuses, and a pretty good bab, and a tonne of class features. Tag on a reserve spell feat and you can blast away at you enemys all day. Again, not optimal, but it looks like it'd be fun to play.

[faceroll]

Go dragonwrought kobold, take 20 levels of battle sorcerer, then apply the spellhoarding dragon psychosis template. You now cast as a wizard.

[Private-Prinny]

Go dragonwrought kobold, take 20 levels of battle sorcerer, then apply the spellhoarding dragon psychosis template. You now cast as a wizard.

If you're going to pull out Spellhoarding, you may as well go all the way. Venerable Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Kobold Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You gain all of the aging bonuses with none of the penalties, and you get the advantages of both Sorcerer ACFs, but instead you cast as a Wizard 3 levels higher than you.

[faceroll]

If you're going to pull out Spellhoarding, you may as well go all the way. Venerable Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Kobold Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You gain all of the aging bonuses with none of the penalties, and you get the advantages of both Sorcerer ACFs, but instead you cast as a Wizard 3 levels higher than you.

I could post an entire build here for a cheese-wizard, but I think my post was sufficiently demonstrative of one way to make battle sorcerer useful.

[Private-Prinny]

I could post an entire build here for a cheese-wizard, but I think my post was sufficiently demonstrative of one way to make battle sorcerer useful.

So the way to make a useful Battle Sorcerer is "be a wizard instead."? Spellhoarding is already sufficiently cheesy by itself.

[EdroGrimshell]

For armor i just get +1 twilight githcraft studded leather or +1 twilight mithral chain shirt

[Zovc]

edit,
for gestalt mix MW with a sorce (regular or battle) for an ungodly number of spells/day. Probably not optimal, but but I'd love to see a D's recation when you tell him you can cast 10 1st level spell a day at level 1.

I'm sure a "D" would be shocked to see a GESTALT CASTER casting a lot of spells at any level.

I don't think you ever specified what a "WM" is. I'm assuming it's a Warmage.

[faceroll]

So the way to make a useful Battle Sorcerer is "be a wizard instead."? Spellhoarding is already sufficiently cheesy by itself.

Yes. Just like the way you make a fighter useful is make it a wizard and call it a warblade.

CharOp is mot identifying the powerful mechanics, then finding ways to take a build and have it access the powerful mechanics.

[Zovc]

Yes. Just like the way you make a fighter useful is make it a wizard and call it a warblade.

What did you just do?

[Crow]

I have a level 21 Battle Sorcerer which was very fun to play and powerful enough for most games. Played her from level 1 to present. I will post the stat block a little later.

Don't listen to all the naysayers. Most of what they say is based on theoretical forum discussion, and has little bearing on actual games. Having played 21 levels of it in actual games, it's a fun class.

[Private-Prinny]

Yes. Just like the way you make a fighter useful is make it a wizard and call it a warblade.

CharOp is mot identifying the powerful mechanics, then finding ways to take a build and have it access the powerful mechanics.

I disagree. I think CharOp is about taking a character concept, and optimizing it. You can have an optimized Monk that isn't just using an Unarmed Swordsage and calling it a day. Optimal? No. Optimized? Yes. There's a reason no one runs around playing Pun-Pun.

[junglesteve]

If you want your sorcerer to be a bit hardier, I'd recommend Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage instead.

You get proficiency (and Weapon Focus) with any martial weapon, and 2 extra HP per level. The only thing you give up is one spell known of your highest level. It's still a bit of a cost, but it's worth it for the type of character that would be considering Battle Sorcerer.

BTW, about the extra 2 HP, it may not seem like much, but it is. Average roll for 1d4 is 2.5, and average roll for 1d8 is 4.5. Notice how the d4 result is 2 lower than the d8 result? The only thing you miss is light armor proficiency, which is done better by spells anyway. It's a much, much better idea.

Or be a bad ass and combine both templates! Pretty sure you can.

[Private-Prinny]

Or be a bad ass and combine both templates! Pretty sure you can.

You can, but it's probably not the greatest idea.

[faceroll]

I disagree. I think CharOp is about taking a character concept, and optimizing it. You can have an optimized Monk that isn't just using an Unarmed Swordsage and calling it a day. Optimal? No. Optimized? Yes. There's a reason no one runs around playing Pun-Pun.

Yes, but an optimized monk is taking advantage of a suite of mechanics that anyone making many iteratives will likely take advantage of.

Much like how a battle sorcerer's spell selection is going to be virtually the same as a wizard's spell selection.