OOTS #735 - The Discussion Thread

[GalenDev]

Tarquin is awesome. I know I'm going to be yelled at for even suggesting this, but I feel he is proof that Evil does NOT equal Bad Guy (just like Good does not equal Good Guy... I'm looking at you, Miko). Hell, even Mallack seems to be on the level... kinda. He's creepy as all hell, but he had no problem healing V after everything happened, and he seems to have much to talk about with Durkon despite their alignment differences.

And yes, the ESB reference at the end was phenomenal. Almost kinda not-quite a Brick Joke, but it worked beautifully.

[hamishspence]

It's been mentioned a few times.

While it's possible Tarquin will turn out to be the party's Evil Ally (just as Miko was its Good Enemy) this may depend on how Roy & Belkar's stint in the arena turns out, what he knows about Girard- and whether he will play fair with the party or not.

[Nilan8888]

While it's possible Tarquin will turn out to be the party's Evil Ally (just as Miko was its Good Enemy) this may depend on how Roy & Belkar's stint in the arena turns out, what he knows about Girard- and whether he will play fair with the party or not.

As an evil ally, it may merely depend on what he WANTS.

For instance, this may be in story just a measure by which we see what the OOTS is willing to live with. It might be that, once he knows about the Snarl, Xykon, everything, Tarquin may be totally willing to help out and NOT stab the OOTS in the back. He just functions as an ally who also happens to be evil.

The expected trope would be that he might start helping them and then, at the last moment, betray them to take over a gate himself -- which is essentially what Nale's doing.

But maybe Tarquin has everything he wants already. Maybe he might just want to help out his son and, as long as he keeps what he has and gets to run his Lawful-Evil empire, he'll be totally fine with the OOTS's goals. You can be evil and be just satisfied with the power you have. Tarquin saying "I'm not going to let my son die at the hands of Xykon and I'm not going to let the world be rules under his thumb AND I'm not going to take over the world through the Snarl" doesn't actually make him good. It just means he's refraining from certain evil things while he indulges in OTHER evil things.

Xykon apparently enjoys some of the same things as Tarquin, like gladitorial combat. But there might be a key difference in that Xykon would like to rule the world and maybe Tarquin would rather not. Or maybe not rule the world using the Snarl (which is playing with fire).

Maybe this is all setup for Tarquin to become an adversary of the OOTS. Or maybe its a difficult question on the ends justifying the means. Tarquin is evil and causing others suffering. But he is also a valuable ally who maybe wants this Gate/Snarl situation resolved in exactly the way the OOTS and the Paladins want it resolved. So do you work with him, maybe save the world and leave the victims of the EOB to thier fate knowing you could have helped, or do you work against Tarquin instead, help out these people and jeapordize the Gate/Snarl situation and possibly make it much worse than it was before?

[hamishspence]

Sounds like a lot of interesting future plot threads.

[oddtail]

I doubt this will happen, but I really hope for something like this: the bounty hunter (I will never remember his name, it seems) fights Belkar in the arena and kills him. Thus, he fulfills the prophecy. Then he and Roy somehow espace the arena or whatever, and the bounty hunter joins Order of the Stick, because:

1) Roy acknowledges that the bounty hunter had no choice but to kill Belkar, and it was a fair fight anyway;
2) Roy needs a party member to replace Belkar;
3) Belkar got killed, so the bounty hunter is more than fit to replace him in terms of level/skill/sheer killing power; also, he can't be a WORSE party tracker than Belkar.
4) The bounty hunter may or may not be evil, but he can't be as bad in Kilonazis as his predecessor, no matter what (also, the theme of "a non-good party member" would be continued).
5) People in the forums love the bounty hunter, so he'd be entertaining to add to the party.
6) EDIT: also, the bounty hunter's and Roy's personalities would clash in new, entertaining ways.

Everybody wins! Except, y'know, Belkar. But he's gonna get offed anyway ;P

[rewinn]

Hearsay. Any court would/should hold that unless the document can be produced and entered into evidence for examination, it cannot be taken into consideration. Sure it's a "technicality" but it's one that defense lawyers pounce on like ducks geese on a demon roach. so, yeah, sauce for the gander...

Except ... it's a LAWFUL EVIL court.

If the court rules demand the paperwork, then a LAWFUL judge will not be happy with anything else especially including hearsay. In an EVIL court, if the judge ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy (pls note reaction of the lawyers ...).

This seems to be one of those court systems that value finality over fairness.

EDITTED: To continue with the Star Wars theme AND accomodate Beklar's fate, wanna bet that

Spoiler

Show

Belkar ends up encased in a block of carbonite, thereby breathing his last?

[suszterpatt]

Two words: Point Tarquin

*golf clap*

[ifly6]

Why does the reptilian bounty hunter refer to "twelve thousand gold" when back in #724 they agree on eight thousand? Is this a reference to or implication of some sort of off-panel interaction or additional bargaining? That might also explain why Tarquin is so irritated?

Or is it a mistake?

Or something else I haven't thought of?

The original bounty was 12 thousand gold. But becasue he used the "made in bad spirit" argument he only earned 8000 and Tarquin doesn't like getting cheated or something like that.

[Thalnawr]

The original bounty was 12 thousand gold. But becasue he used the "made in bad spirit" argument he only earned 8000 and Tarquin doesn't like getting cheated or something like that.

Not really. The ALIVE bounty was 35000 gold, plus 5000 per associate. The DEAD bounty was 10000 for Nale, and quite possibly could have been 1000 per dead associate. In a round-about way, they did bring back news that Nale and Co are dead (according to Elan).

[Particle_Man]

Awesome! I agree that Tarquin is LE (using the courts instead of a certain CE lich just blowing them up).

As for what Tarquin will do, obviously he will do whatever is Dramatically Appropriate. He is just as bound by drama, tropes, and narrative conventions as Elan.

Trouble is, that doesn't help me predict what he will do, since there are a variety of trope roles he could fit at this point.

[geekwraith]

It looks like Kilkil....
made a clerical error.

Win. This made me laugh almost as much as the comic.

[B. Dandelion]

I agree with the poster who said this does make Tarquin look petty, especially given that paying off the bounty hunters in the first place served to make him look like an honorable person who was convinced to uphold the spirit of the law, not a weak person who was subject to extortion. That he's using Elan as an excuse here proves he's being deliberately two-faced, not affably evil. He couldn't show this side of his personality in front of Elan, he had to pay off the bounty hunters for the sake of seeming "fair", and resented it, and so to retaliate he arranged for their deaths behind his son's back. He's not a genuinely even-tempered guy who can be merciless when the occasion calls for it, he's a spiteful and paranoid person who can put on a charming facade.

I've wondered before if the bounty hunters were destined to wind up in an Enemy Mine with Roy, now I'm almost certain. We haven't had one of those yet, so I'm looking forward to it.

Also the strip was hilarious, as others have noted.

[Dancing_Fox]

. . . and the bounty hunter joins Order of the Stick, . . .

Everybody wins! Except, y'know, Belkar. But he's gonna get offed anyway ;P

Everybody? What about the big blue dragon? I don't see anyone offering him a free pass to OOTS, unless they're doing a "2 for 1" offer on new recruits. People are speaking like there is only one bounty hunter.

So he's dead in an arena or cut loose from his best buddy. Not a win for him!

Oh, yeah, and good point whoever said the "yummy vs pointy" balance was all wrong for them to join OOTS. Help in a moment of need as goals align, maybe. Permanent members, no.

[sihnfahl]

That he's using Elan as an excuse here proves he's being deliberately two-faced, not affably evil.

What evidence do you have that it's an excuse and not a legitimate grievance for someone who's LE?

[Swordpriest]

Oh, yeah, and good point whoever said the "yummy vs pointy" balance was all wrong for them to join OOTS. Help in a moment of need as goals align, maybe. Permanent members, no.

Not to be immodest, but I think it was I who first pointed out the yummy vs. pointy balance as regards the OotS membership for them. Unless, of course, I was ninja'ed, which wouldn't surprise me either.

[B. Dandelion]

What evidence do you have that it's an excuse and not a legitimate grievance for someone who's LE?

Poor choice of words, perhaps. What I mean is that he didn't let on to Elan that this upset him, when it clearly did. This "legitimate" grievance is not one he's willing to own up to in front of his son, proving that he's two-faced, presenting a deliberately false image of himself for Elan's benefit.

[krossbow]

Bah, long and short of it: You DON'T talk back to a powerful military figure. And furthermore, don't expect them to play nice if you suddenly find YOURSELF in a position of weakness.

[sihnfahl]

What I mean is that he didn't let on to Elan that this upset him, when it clearly did.

Tarquin's a proud man ... and Elan's Dad.

What father wants to look weak in front of his son?

[B. Dandelion]

Tarquin's a proud man ... and Elan's Dad.

What father wants to look weak in front of his son?

So to prove that he's not weak, he pays the guy off in front of his son and has him clubbed while Elan's back is turned? Oh... kay?

Besides which, it's only his own rampant paranoia that would make him think he had looked "weak" in the first place. Gannji didn't threaten him, he pointed out that the notice hadn't been made in good faith when it didn't mention Nale had an identical twin. That's an appeal made to his Lawful nature, and Tarquin's acceptance of it does nothing to hurt his reputation.

What kind of pride sees insults at every turn? He's proud the way Nale is proud -- and of course, he's not only Nale's dad, but self-admittedly the reason Nale turned out the way he did.

[Tobimaro]

Perfect Cleric discussion. Any healer will sympathize with them.

Yep. Been there, healed that.

And nice twist courtesy of Tarquin. A vindictive Lawful Evil person is not to be messed with.

[Morgan Wick]

I, too, originally got on the "12k = original bounty" bandwagon.

While it's possible Tarquin will turn out to be the party's Evil Ally (just as Miko was its Good Enemy) this may depend on how Roy & Belkar's stint in the arena turns out, what he knows about Girard- and whether he will play fair with the party or not.

Belkar is already the team's Evil Ally. Well, for certain definitions of "ally"...

[BriarHobbit]

Wow! This was a great episode. The dwarvish name for paper cuts, the Star Wars quote and the little note from Elan's Dad. Just wonderful.

[Voyager_I]

So to prove that he's not weak, he pays the guy off in front of his son and has him clubbed while Elan's back is turned? Oh... kay?

It's more that he didn't want to go all "Evil Overlord" on the uppity bounty hunters in front of his good-aligned son, but at the same time he wasn't about to let them get away with that kind of impudence.

Fortunately, being the head of an oppressive bureaucracy has its perks.

[factotum]

Tarquin is awesome. I know I'm going to be yelled at for even suggesting this, but I feel he is proof that Evil does NOT equal Bad Guy

I think that would all depend on whether you were in his way or not! As an Evil character his natural reaction to an obstacle would be to destroy it, regardless of who or what it was--and I doubt the bounty hunter is currently thinking how cool Tarquin is or what a nice person he turned out to be...

[abbott.e]

I doubt this will happen, but I really hope for something like this: the bounty hunter (I will never remember his name, it seems) fights Belkar in the arena and kills him. Thus, he fulfills the prophecy. Then he and Roy somehow espace the arena or whatever, and the bounty hunter joins Order of the Stick, because:

1) Roy acknowledges that the bounty hunter had no choice but to kill Belkar, and it was a fair fight anyway;
2) Roy needs a party member to replace Belkar;
3) Belkar got killed, so the bounty hunter is more than fit to replace him in terms of level/skill/sheer killing power; also, he can't be a WORSE party tracker than Belkar.
4) The bounty hunter may or may not be evil, but he can't be as bad in Kilonazis as his predecessor, no matter what (also, the theme of "a non-good party member" would be continued).
5) People in the forums love the bounty hunter, so he'd be entertaining to add to the party.
6) EDIT: also, the bounty hunter's and Roy's personalities would clash in new, entertaining ways.

Everybody wins! Except, y'know, Belkar. But he's gonna get offed anyway ;P

I don't know why anyone is concerned about Belkar's imminent demise, this is D&D, as long as there are still Clerics and diamonds in the world, death doesn't have to last forever.
And I'm sure that since Belkar's Damascene Epiphany he's been of enough benefit to Roy to be worthy of a resurrection.

[Francis Davey]

On the question of the size of the bounty, I notice that there is a gap between #724 and #725, could it be that as a result of further negotiation or extortion (or something else - an intervention by Elan perhaps) the agreed sum rises from 8,000 to 12,000 gold pieces? Its possible there is some off-screen action (that may or may not turn up in a bonus strip) that explains better the discrepancy and the reason behind Tarquin's reaction (the repudiation of the bounty hunters in the trial).

The Giant is pretty good at explaining when mistakes are made (eg on Durkon's age). The fact that nothing has been said may suggest that this is for some perhaps unfathomable reason there for a reason.

The original bounty would have been 35,000 + 5,000/follower = 45,000 so that doesn't help us. Its possible this is just the "dead" amount (though I don't see that anyone has a reason for Sabine being dead) which is the only other explanation so far offered that makes sense.

Or maybe there's a 50% additional sum owed for some bureaucratic reason. Its that kind of place.

[hamishspence]

Belkar is already the team's Evil Ally. Well, for certain definitions of "ally"...

Belkar's a Token Evil Teammate. An Ally is someone who's not in the party- but whose resources are being put to use to help the party.

A bit like Shojo in that respect.

Is it at all feasible that Tarquin could play a similar role to Shojo, for the party?

[LuPuWei]

Alot of people are pointing out Gannji's crossbow in the last pannel.

I believe he has it back because, well, an arena fight with weapons is much more fun to watch (presumably). So when they pack him up to ship off to jail, he'll have his "Accessories all Included".

[B. Dandelion]

It's more that he didn't want to go all "Evil Overlord" on the uppity bounty hunters in front of his good-aligned son, but at the same time he wasn't about to let them get away with that kind of impudence.

Fortunately, being the head of an oppressive bureaucracy has its perks.

The question is WHY he can't let them get away with it. Because it's bad for PR, or because he was seriously pissed off about it? Paying them in public only to shiv them in private means the message he's letting out in front of other people (including but not limited to Elan) is NOT that of the iron-fisted tyrant. Backstabbing them in the dark is something he has no motive to do UNLESS he's taken the whole thing personally -- which to me speaks to insecurity and weakness. It's a disproportionate retribution against a petty and quasi-imagined slight... now where have I heard THAT before?

[Garwain]

Just a few thoughts:

1) I bet Tarquin will try to win Elan over to the evil side by making him decide which of his friends will battle to death. Ofcourse Nale refuses and fights his father.

2) I really wonder why the bounty hunter did not receive a copy, a receipt or something else in this paper-loaded bureaucracy.

3) Where is our blue halfdragon? Is he convicted as well?

4) treevenge is epic win

5) Just wait untill Tarquin learns about a superpower being that can be controlled to rule the world. No more petty Empires with figureheads, but actual power...