3.5 Dwarf Fighter/Dwarven Defender Build

[StreetPizza]

Howdy, fellow DnD-ers! I'm here to ask advice on the feat and equipment build for an old character of mine, the aforementioned Dwarf Fighter/Dwarven Defender. He's my first character and I'd really like to play a few more games using him just based on the sentimental value and backstory I've retroactively written for him.

The proceeding build has been scrapped due to lethal amounts of not awesome. A new build has been started and can be found here.

Spoiler

Show

Anyways, the general purpose of this guy is to take damage and dish it back out, preferably to masses of mooks, so here's my current projected build. In terms of levels, I'm planning on making him a Fighter 12/Dwarven Defender 8.

Feats
Flaw (Comfort Object): Power Attack
Flaw (Binge Drinker): Robust Health - This is effectively a replacement for Toughness, prerequisite-wise.
Flaw (Large Ham): Dodge
Level 1 Feat: Weapon Focus: Greataxe
Level 1 Fighter Bonus Feat: Cleave
Level 2 Fighter Bonus Feat: Endurance
Level 3 Feat: Gigantic Weapon
Level 4 Fighter Bonus Feat: Great Cleave
Level 6 Feat: Weapon Specialization: Greataxe
Level 6 Fighter Bonus Feat: Heavy Armor Optimization (RoS)
Level 8 Fighter Bonus Feat: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (RoS)
Level 9 Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 10 Fighter Bonus Feat: Improved Sunder
Level 12 Feat: Improved Critical (Greataxe)
Level 12 Fighter Bonus Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization
Level 15 Feat: Bonded Weapon (Greataxe)
Level 18 Feat: Attack Focus

Projected Equipment at level 20
+5 Keen Adamantine Greataxe of Icy Blast (Large, hence the Gigantic Weapon feat)
--For RP reasons, I'm not willing to change the greataxe to a greatsword, despite the improved critical range.
+5 Mithral Fullplate of Speed

Feel free to criticize, exorcise, burninate-ize, or whatever else you think would help make the character not completely useless among a party of optimized builds.

[Stompy]

also, get wraithstrike in some way at the very least. (Heartstrike Amulet is 3000 gp for it 3/day I believe)

EDIT: Why do you have 3 flaws?

[EnnPeeCee]

I don't mean to rip on your build, but pretty much everyone on this forum will tell you that basically all of the choices you made on that character are pretty bad choices. Personally, I really like defender type builds, but they don't work well in application.


Some suggestions:

Dwarven Defender is often considered worse than straight fighter, which in itself is not considered to be very good. Consider using something like full Knight, or one of the ToB classes.

Weapon Focus and Specialization give you very little for the cost of that many feats. You should replace them with something else, or if you're dropping fighter, drop them completely.

Cleave, Sunder, Dodge, and Endurance are also considered to be poor feats to take. I know some of those filled prereqs for DD, but they're bad feats.

You may want to look for some of the online handbooks people have written for these type classes (I don't have links at the moment)

[Glimbur]

What do you want to do, conceptually? You said you're looking to fight groups of mooks and be able to take damage.

How do you feel about battlefield control? A workable way to do that would be Psychic Warrior 10/Slayer 10 (both in the SRD) or Psychic Warrior 20. That gets you Expansion, so you can grow larger and therefore be able to reach more squares despite using a non-reach weapon. The major disadvantages here are that this is rather different from your original character and you would have to learn psionics, which is not hard.

If you just want to hit things, consider warblade (maneuvers here). Warblade keeps with the theme of hitting people and works fine with a great axe. It has the advantage of having maneuvers, which give you more options and capabilities in combat. The disadvantage is you would have to learn the maneuver system, which isn't terribly hard.

When you say "optimized builds", how optimized do you mean? Let's use the test of spite scale to quantify:

Spoiler

Show

Tier -2: Pun Pun

Tier -1: An unbeatable build.

Tier 0: An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers.

Tier .5: A build that can probably only be beaten if you have specifically prepared for it. Example: Sofawall's Cube build.

Tier 1: A build that has many effective tricks, insanely high defenses, and can end most encounters in a round. Example: A very effectively played Batman wizard.

Tier 2: Multiple great tricks and great defenses. Where I usually build for. Example: A CoDzilla or a Warmarked.

Tier 3: A build that either has one great trick or a lot of moderately good ones, while still having stellar defenses. Example: A well made Warblade, a good tripper, or a buff focused Sorcerer.

Tier 4: A build that, while still having a trick or two, has fallen very short on the defensive side of the line or has great defenses without being able to defeat an opponent on its own very easily. Example: A Charging Fighter or a VoP Monkadin.

Tier 5: A build that, while attempting to be optimized, still has neither good defenses nor a worthwile trick. Example: A typical fighter.

Tier 6: A build that *twitch* chooses feats for flavor reasons *twitch*

For reference, your character is somewhere between Tier 5 and 6 as presented now. This is not meant to be a judgment, but a helpful guidepost.

[Prodan]

DD is a Tier +0 class, which means it's about as good as the intended entry class, which I believe is Fighter.

The Defensive Stance sucks, but the rest of it's ok. The good will save is nice.

Prerequisite wise, you have two bad prerequisites, but Toughness can be replaced by Improved Toughness iirc, and Dodge can be replace by Expeditious Dodge or Midnight Dodge.

I wouldn't go for flaws, as a fighter you should get enough feats.

Start off as a Fighter, pick up a Spiked Chain, take a level or two of Exotic Weapon Master, throw in a few levels of Dwarven Defender, and you'll have a much better character.

---

Better classes for your character: Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade, Totemist.
Better prestige classes: Deepwarden, Warmind, Eternal Blade, Master of the Nine, Incarnum Blade.

[StreetPizza]

Thanks for the quick response, folks. As you can already tell, I'm not exactly proficient at this sort of thing .

Why do you have 3 flaws?

The flaws give me bonus feats, although if I don't need the feats due to some major rebuilding like EnnPeeCee (I see what you did there. ) suggests, I'll dump them. From what I looked up, Wraithstrike sounds pretty good.

Some suggestions

Wowee. I had no idea DD was that bad of a PrC. Still, it does seem logical for DD to be bad if it's really just more of the same "smack visible enemy with basic attack until it falls down" routine but with bad prereq feats lumped on top of it. I'll definitely look up some of those handbooks.

How do you feel about battlefield control?

Like you said, the whole Psychic Warrior thing would be too different from my original intent. The idea of Warblade as a Fighter-that-works has interested me for a good while, though. I'll give that a good looking-at.

Better classes for your character: Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Warblade
Better prestige classes: Deepwarden, Warmind, Eternal Blade, Master of the Nine.

Thanks a bunch for the class suggestions. I'll look them up and see if anything catches my eye, at which point I'll get back with a rebuilt build and see if that works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The absolute best advice that can be given for a Dwarven Defender build is to skip the Dwarven Defender class.

If you insist on using Fighter instead of one of the better classes, you should get 18 levels for Weapon Supremacy. Get the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels but rename it big bad bully or similar and strip it of the need to be a part of any organization. You should also use the Dwarf Fighter substitution levels in Races of Stone, along with the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape. Note that you'll be trading the worthless Racial Foes ability from Dwarf Fighter 2 for Dungeoncrasher, but you'll still get d12 HP and the added class skill for that substitution level. You should include two levels of Deepwarden from Races of Stone, which adds your Con modifier to your AC in place of your Dex modifier. This allows you to supersede the max dex bonus of heavy armor, since it's not a max con bonus, though some will argue that this goes against RAI.

Definitely get (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization from RoS, and consider taking Wild Talent or Hidden Talent or even Warped Mind so you can take psionic feats like Deflective Armor and Focused Shield in RoS. Psionic Dodge is also good if you're going to take Dodge, in which case you should also pick up Titan Fighting in RoS, though you probably should put as low a stat as possible on Dex and won't even qualify. Shield Specialization and Shield Ward in PH2 are highly recommended if you're going to use a shield at all. Take Item Familiar to get a 10% XP bonus, be able to upgrade your chosen item (probably a weapon) for half price as though you had all the right item creation feats and other prerequisites, and it counts as an intelligent item which means effects treat it as a construct so it cannot be dispelled or disjoined and it continues functioning in an AMF. Put the Brutal Surge property on it so you can Bull Rush opponents for free to deal Dungeoncrasher damage. I'd make it a Dwarven Waraxe so you can use a shield with it if necessary, or it can be used two-handed, since a weapon's base damage becomes insignificant in the higher levels. You'll need Int 14 to get all the required skills for Deepwarden, keep in mind Dwarf Fighter gets Kn: Dungeoneering as a class skill, and you'll want max ranks on Intimidate. You definitely want to get Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, which requires Cha 15, as well as the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel. Dreadful Wrath is a wonderful feat from PGtF if you can take regional feats.

Dwarf, Fighter 7/ Deepwarden 2/ Fighter 11
Flaw: Hidden Talent
Flaw: Endurance
Flaw: Steadfast Determination
Level 1: Dreadful Wrath
Dwarf Fighter 1: Axe Focus (Weapon Focus in all axelike weapons)
Dwarf Fighter 2: Dungeoncrasher ACF
Level 3: Item Familiar
Zhentarim Fighter 3: Skill Focus: Intimidate
Fighter 4: Heavy Armor Optimization
Zhentarim Fighter 5: Extended Intimidation
Level 6: Deflective Armor
Fighter 6: Dungeoncrasher ACF
Deepwarden 1: Track
Level 9: Power Attack
Deepwarden 2: Stone Warden
Dwarf Fighter 8: Heavy Armor Expertise
Zhentarim Fighter 9: Swift Demoralization
Level 12: Imperious Command
Fighter 10: Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
Fighter 12: Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
Level 15: Slashing Flurry
Fighter 14: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
Level 18: Greater Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
Fighter 16: Greater Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
Fighter 18: Weapon Supremacy: Dwarven Waraxe

[Prodan]

What are people's opinions on the urgosh?

[Hurlbut]

Well it is Martial for the dwarf. It's handy for having both slashing and piercing in your hands (doesn't need to have TWF, just declare which end you're attacking with the attacks you normally have) and against a charging opponent, that's all I can say about it really.

[PId6]

What are people's opinions on the urgosh?

As a martial weapon, falchion/greatsword are just better for general purposes. As an exotic weapon, it doesn't come close to spiked chain. As a double weapon, you don't want to use a double weapon.

[Coidzor]

The absolute best advice that can be given for a Dwarven Defender build is to skip the Dwarven Defender class.

Dwarf, Fighter 7/ Deepwarden 2/ Fighter 11

Um. Even with Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier, and Dwarven Racial substitution levels, Fighter's barely a 9 level class. And to really use that, he'll want to be a gold dwarf to avoid the CHA penalty, since as a heavy armor guy, he doesn't need much dex anyway.

Simply put, the next 9 levels after that should be something more fighterific than a fighter or take advantage of the charisma. Probably the charisma, actually.

[StreetPizza]

Thanks a bunch for all the input, everyone! So far, this is what I have planning:

Gold Dwarf with Mineral Warrior template

Ranger 2/Dwarven Paragon 3/Deepwarden 5/Warblade 9/Dwarven Defender 1

Assuming the DM I punish this build with allows stuff like Deepwarden's Stone Warden AC bonus not being limited by an armor's max Dex bonus, Heavy Armor Optimization applying to Mithral "heavy" armor, and other cheesetacular whatnots, I could be looking at an AC of over 50 and 300 hit points on top of my 1d8+16d12+3d10. Modest compared to some really optimized builds out there, I know, but I like to keep things simple... sorta.

P.S.: Racial Paragons work like prestige classes on the subject of multiclass XP penalties, right?

[ScionoftheVoid]

Thanks a bunch for all the input, everyone! So far, this is what I have planning:

Gold Dwarf with Mineral Warrior template

Ranger 2/Dwarven Paragon 3/Deepwarden 5/Warblade 9/Dwarven Defender 1

Assuming the DM I punish this build with allows stuff like Deepwarden's Stone Warden AC bonus not being limited by an armor's max Dex bonus, Heavy Armor Optimization applying to Mithral "heavy" armor, and other cheesetacular whatnots, I could be looking at an AC of over 50 and 300 hit points on top of my 1d8+16d12+3d10. Modest compared to some really optimized builds out there, I know, but I like to keep things simple... sorta.

P.S.: Racial Paragons work like prestige classes on the subject of multiclass XP penalties, right?

Two questions: Why would you wear Mithral "heavy" armour as a Dwarf? Most of the drawbacks are in the armour check penalty (still large after the reduction), max Dex to armour class (avoided by Con to AC) and lack of ability to Run four times your speed (Dwarves are slow at best (without focusing on speed) and you should have a method of flight at higher levels to make this irrelevant anyway).

Why use multiclass penalties in the first place? They weaken already weaker characters, don't make sense from a fluff standpoint and add more bookkeeping to XP gains. You would also still have penalties, unless you can convince your DM that Warblade would be a Favoured Class for Dwarves if it were Core, even if though Racial Paragon classes don't count.

[Hurlbut]

max Dex to armour class (avoided by Con to AC)

The Stone Warden does not specifically said that it ignore the Maximum Dexterity used by the armor. From a DM's viewpoint, it implies that the Con bonus when used in place of Dexterity Bonus to AC should have same restrictions applied to it as shown by the "Flat Footed" clause in the Stone Warden ability.

So it is actually up to his DM to rule whenever the armor's maximum dex apply to his Con Bonus or not.

P.S.: Racial Paragons work like prestige classes on the subject of multiclass XP penalties, right?

"Levels in racial paragon classes never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters." quoted from SRD.

[StreetPizza]

Two questions.

Well, both of those questions probably hang on the whim of the DM; for the Mithral "heavy" armor, the DM has to decide whether or not Heavy Armor Optimization applies its bonuses to the armor due to the whole blurring of the line between medium and heavy. If so, I'll have a Dwarf who more or less lives in his armor (yay). If not, poo for me. Same with the Deepwarden's Stone Warden thing, as Hurlbut stated.

And as for the multiclass penalties, I'm aware of the penalty I'd incur for being a Ranger 2/Warblade 9. I was just wondering if the penalty would be worsened for the Racial Paragon class. Thankfully, it's not.

Edit: So, how do you guys feel about the class build? I honestly think, after a break of about eight hours, that it's facing the same problem as the original build: lack of versatility. Should I consider Zhentarim and/or Dungeoncrasher as Biffoniacus_Furiou suggested, try something else for greater versatility (i.e., foes who are hiding behind invisibility/magic barriers/social settings), or just reread my Tome of Battle?

[PId6]

Ranger 2/Dwarven Paragon 3/Deepwarden 5/Warblade 9/Dwarven Defender 1

Why the levels of ranger? You're not going to use a bow, and TWF is pretty bad. What purpose does it serve? Also, you should never incur multiclassing penalties if you can help it. Something like more warblade or just fighter seem better choices.

Dwarf Paragon doesn't seem that helpful either. The +2 Con is nice, but beyond that it's not as good as, say, more warblade levels. The minor bonuses it provides just aren't worth the lost levels.

Why five levels of Deepwarden? Two levels gets you what you want; the remaining three levels really isn't worth it. For that matter, why one level of Dwarven Defender? It costs three terrible feats to enter, and Defensive Stance 1/day isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Look into Deepstone Sentinel in ToB if you want a version of that which actually works.

[StreetPizza]

Good thing I just got my ToB, then. It seems to have a lot of stuff that I like, and as Billy Mays might say, "Now with 70% more functionality! A $20 dollar value for free! Just pay shipping or handling." Or something like that.

Anyways, the Dwarven Defender level (and maybe the Racial Paragon/extra 3 Deepwarden), I'm fully willing to dump for Deepstone Sentinel (especially now that I've seen what it can do. A defensive stance-esque ability that can't be inched around? Yes please. ), but I'm worried about a few things if I lose them. For the Paragon, the hp and 1 point of Stone Warden AC from Con I lose are negligible, and I'm fine with that, but what about the Stubborn Mind from Deepwarden? I see that as a pretty important defense against enchantment users. What could I gain from the ToB classes that could patch up this hole in my defenses against magic?

And as for the Ranger levels, they're there to expedite the class skills required for Deepwarden. If it's better to just fulfill those reqs with cross-classery, I'm fine with dumping Ranger for that.

[Hurlbut]

Replace Dodge with Iron Will.

[Prodan]

What could I gain from the ToB classes that could patch up this hole in my defenses against magic?

Well, it's sure be pretty handy if you could use the Concentration skill in place of a will save.

Or take a feat to apply your Con score to will saves, I suppose.

[StreetPizza]

Well, it's sure be pretty handy if you could use the Concentration skill in place of a will save.

Or take a feat to apply your Con score to will saves, I suppose.

Ooo, Steadfast Determination can do just that.

Replace Dodge with Iron Will.

Can do! Especially now that I don't need it as a prereq for Dwarven Defender.

[Hurlbut]

Ooo, Steadfast Determination can do just that.

That's what he meant. As a bonus, you won't get an automatic failure on a natural 1 with your Fortitude saves.

[StreetPizza]

Okay, so here's the updated class build:

Warblade 7/Deepwarden 2/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Warblade 6

For feats, I've got a good deal to work with based on the advice you guys gave me. I'll try to get back tonight or tomorrow with a complete-ish list.

[PId6]

but what about the Stubborn Mind from Deepwarden? I see that as a pretty important defense against enchantment users. What could I gain from the ToB classes that could patch up this hole in my defenses against magic?

The Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver lets you make a Concentration check instead of a Will save. Since Concentration is easily pumped and based on Con, that's pretty much auto-pass right there. Steadfast Determination is also good for that. (Do not take Iron Will or any of those iterations; they're just terrible.)

And as for the Ranger levels, they're there to expedite the class skills required for Deepwarden. If it's better to just fulfill those reqs with cross-classery, I'm fine with dumping Ranger for that.

Cross-class and waiting doesn't hurt that much. Alternatively, dip a level of Dwarf Paragon for Dungeoneering and Survival. You still won't get Heal, but oh well.

[Prodan]

Deepwarden skill prerequisites will be tough on a Warblade's skill points.

Would a Ranger2/Warblade2/Ranger1/Deepwarden2/Deepstone Sentinel work?

[Hurlbut]

So having an extra +2 bonus to all Will Saves is terrible, PId6?

[Prodan]

So having an extra +2 bonus to all Will Saves is terrible, PId6?

It gets worse when you compare it to Steadfast Determination.

[PId6]

So having an extra +2 bonus to all Will Saves is terrible, PId6?

For a feat, yes. It's mildly better than the +skill feats, but significantly behind compared to good ones like Power Attack (or even mediocre ones like Weapon Focus). You can get +2 to all saves for 4000 gp, or +2 to Will from a single level dip somewhere, or from numerous other sources. In comparison, Iron Will is just a horrendous waste of a feat.

[StreetPizza]

Deepwarden skill prerequisites will be tough on a Warblade's skill points.

Would a Ranger2/Warblade2/Ranger1/Deepwarden2/Deepstone Sentinel work?

I saw Ranger 3/(Insert other class here) 2 come up a lot last night when I was browsing the WotC forum topic on the Deepwarden. While this would definitely work for getting Stone Warden asap, keeping Warblade that low to avoid the cross class penalty would deny me a lot of high level maneuvers. Y'know, like that level 9 one from Iron Heart that gives you +100 damage?

[Prodan]

Y'know, like that level 9 one from Iron Heart that gives you +100 damage?

Think about it: what do you give up to deal that damage?

[StreetPizza]

That's some food for thought. As a matter of fact, it just occurred to me that my build, the Warblade 7/Deepwarden 2/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Warblade 6 with Mineral Warrior, might not even work if the DM implements a conservative point buy system for stats. I'd end up putting too many points in Int to counteract the -2 from the template, giving me pretty far less-than-optimal Str/Con just for decent skills.

Still, my original goal was probably 70% optimization, 30% roleplay as "the guy with an axe who's good at using it and taking hits", so I'm gonna have to stick with the no-Ranger build. For purposes of total optimization, though, I'm definitely saving the Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Ranger 1/Deepwarden 2/Deepstone Sentinel build.