Whining player, what to do

[Rising Phoenix]

Greetings to everyone,

During this year most of my sessions have been generally considered to be successes. Everyone appears to be having fun even when I am not enjoying the session. Overall my players are great and though I have four new ones they have/are learning the ropes fast and have started to roleplay (yesterday we had our first purely in party discussion. It was great!)

Unfortunately one of my older players is a consistent whiner. He gets hit by a monster, he whines. The BBEGirls minions are preferably targeting him cause he insulted her, he whines. He breaks formation from the party and gets swarmed by the Kythons he's fighting, he whines (he has done this three times in the past). The story goes against the party, he whines. He only gets 100 exp from a truly trivial encounter, he whines. His ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunities from enemies within melee range, he whines (Yes, I have explained to him many times the rules and logic behind this. I've told him to read the PHB, he hasn't )

In the meantime the rest of the group grabs what I tell and give them and runs with it. It's great.

He's behaviour has just been an annoyance thus far, but at least two players have approached me complaining that it is spoiling their experience.

I've talked to him about this and asked him what's causing this. He answered:
1) "No matter what I do, I cannot win". To which I replied, you cannot win DnD, you never can. It's a story and you're character is part of that story. Your character has goals which he can achieve. But you can never win in the conventional sense in DnD.
2) "I don't like bad stuff happening to my character and you keep tossing tough encounters at us." To which I answer: That's fair enough, but just as in life bad things happen to you, bad things will happen to your character. Furthermore you are in the army, in a war and you've betrayed your country... It's my job to challenge the party, it's my job to make things interesting and fun. I suggest you take cue from the others. Stop metagaming (HE DOES THAT A LOT), immerse yourselves in the situation and find a solution rather than turn to me every time bad stuff happens and whine. If you have problems with the rules, ask me, or better still READ THE PHB.

This discussion was two sessions ago and his behaviour hasn't changed. Last night I had to keep gently prodding him so that he'd act quickly to minimize his complaints.

I really do not want to kick him out of the group. But if the complaints keep piling up, I may have to.

Does the playground have any advise advice to offer?

My sincere thanks,

R.P.

[Serpentine]

Okay, so you've already had an up-front, frank conversation with him on the issue? Here's one possibility (make sure you inform the other players, first): run a game in which everything goes his way. Only the weakest of the weak creatures go after him, while all the tough ones go for everyone else. And/or have the party only come across trivial encounters, no tough ones at all, and pile on the experience for them. Have every single NPC see him as Friendly. Have BBEGs totally ignore him. Have all the characters except for him hit by traps. Give him every McGuffin and other powerful items. Etc, etc so on and so forth. Really pile it up. Then, at the end, say to him "Congratulations! You won D&D!"
Normally I'm very much against passive-aggressive "solutions", but in this case, where you've already had a proper discussion with him about it, this might be the best way to demonstrate the silliness of his complaints. Make sure that afterwards you sit down with him again for another conversation, and unless he quickly agrees that you're right and that that makes for a very boring game, flat-out tell him that he's spoiling the experience for the others and if he doesn't stop he'll have to leave the game.

[Lhurgyof]

Have something to pass around the table, only the PC with said item can talk. This should help in combat. And impose some penalty for those who speak out of turn. That may help.

I don't know. You talked to him. Thats about the best you can do, and since that's not working, there's not much to do.

[Another_Poet]

flat-out tell him that he's spoiling the experience for the others and if he doesn't stop he'll have to leave the game.

I would go right to this part and skip the part where you waste 4 hours of the other players' time giving him the spotlight, which will only make things worse.

[Prodan]

Does the playground have any advise to offer?

Advice, not advise.

[valadil]

"No matter what I do, I cannot win".

What does he expect to happen? The enemies to stand there while he whacks them? Or does he want a game full of puppies and grandmas?

I say you offer him the world's most unthreatening game as a thought experiment. Ask him what such a game would be like. How much fun would it be to get +5 plate mail if nothing ever swings a sword at you. If he still doesn't get it, run that game for him. Let him see how boring the world is if nothing ever threatens him.

[gooddragon1]

Let him see how boring the world is if nothing ever threatens him.

Let's hope he's not like me in that respect then... I made a character for that exact reason.

[ryzouken]

Hit him with a stick.

Then tell him to put on his big girl panties and cut his -expletive deleted-'ing.

If he fails to do this, tell him he can come back when he finds said big girl panties.


(Ryzo's pet peeve #2: whiners. Don't like something? Figure out how to fix it and fix it. Just don't whine about it like a dog.)

[Rising Phoenix]

Advice, not advise.

Thank you. :)

Everyone: The thing is, I did mention a scenario were he won at everything and got all the cool stuff. He liked that a lot. However, when I said "Right now imagine that for session after session. Nothing can stop you. You can do whatever you want and everything/one does whatever you tell them to do. Does that sound like fun to you?" he agreed that'd it probably be very boring... Obviously it didn't change anything in the long run...

I do not wish to go through such a scenario in real life neither do I want to punish the other players for his behaviour. I think that a fair strong warning is my best bet atm unless someone has anything else to suggest...

Thanks for all your comments thus far,

R.P.

[The Rabbler]

Before your next game, explain to him that what he's doing is ruining the fun for the other players. then, during the game, if he keeps whining, boot him afterwards. there really isn't much you can do about those kind of players.

[Serpentine]

I would go right to this part and skip the part where you waste 4 hours of the other players' time giving him the spotlight, which will only make things worse.

My thinking was that he's already done that, and so a practical demonstration might be helpful in driving the point home.

[KenderWizard]

Or you could do the opposite from the everything-goes-right boring game, and run a game where he's always incapacitated at the start of every fight, he loses all his items, the NPCs all take a rather violent dislike to him, and then ask him if he sees how nice you usually are. Might cause an increase in whining in the short term, though!

[Dexam]

I have actually had repeated dealings with a player who was almost exactly like this (except for the part about not knowing rules - this particular player knew them inside out). Fortunately I wasn't DMing this player, but I was in the several of the same gaming groups and they behaved the same in every single game.

The answer is: Tough Love. Before the start of the next game, take the individual aside and speak to them in private. Do not speak to them in front of the other players, because they'll feel like they're being ganged-up on; other players will interrupt and make this more difficult, and the problem player will get defensive and possibly aggressive.

Tell the player in a polite manner that their attitude is ruining the fun of the game for you (the DM) and the other players. Tell them: if they're not having fun, then they should leave the game and they can come back when they can behave in a more sociable manner. Stress that this is not about them personally, it's about their attitude when playing; and the game is for the enjoyment of all the players and DM, not just them. Do not mention the names of specific other players if they ask who is complaining about them, just say "everyone". If they promise to clean up their act and behave, it's up to you to decide if you want to allow them to remain; but tell them that this is a final warning, and the first sign that they're returning to their previous behaviour, they are out of the game. Be harsh if necessary, but be fair.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I've had players/fellow players like that too OP. Negativity is one of the most unattractive things in the world. The sooner people get that, the less the people around them will want to strangle them.

Its a healthy life lesson!

edit: And honestly, there is not a pain-free way of dealing with this. You will have to confront him...

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

if his whining continues be very frank. .

IE tell him this. "Quit your Whining or i'm kicking you because i've been getting complaints about you Frakin whining"

he will either shape up from raw embrassment of knowing the others are complaining about him, or leave of his own accord. if he doesn't . . . well you gave him fair warning.

[arrowhen]

He's behaviour has just been an annoyance thus far, but at least two players have approached me complaining that it is spoiling their experience.

Tell these two players to stop whining to you about the other player's whining and talk to him about it.

You're the DM. Your job is to design encounters and play NPCs. That's it. I don't know where we got the idea that the DM is supposed to be the group babysitter, but it's a ridiculous notion and an unfair burden on the one member of the group who already has to put in the majority of the work on the activity that the group is there to participate in.

If you were all out bowling or fishing or something, you wouldn't elect a member of the group to be the Bowling Master or the Fishing Master and expect that person to negotiate all the conflicts between you. If one guy kept whining because he rolled a gutterball or his fish got away, whoever was annoyed the most would just step up and say, "Dude, it's just bowling/fishing, stop being such a candyass about it."

[Savagefish]

Too easy. Start up a game where he gets to DM for a few secessions. Then get all of the other players to pull the same stunts. I did this to one of my whining players. He left the game

[Rising Phoenix]

Tell these two players to stop whining to you about the other player's whining and talk to him about it.

You're the DM. Your job is to design encounters and play NPCs. That's it. I don't know where we got the idea that the DM is supposed to be the group babysitter, but it's a ridiculous notion and an unfair burden on the one member of the group who already has to put in the majority of the work on the activity that the group is there to participate in.

If you were all out bowling or fishing or something, you wouldn't elect a member of the group to be the Bowling Master or the Fishing Master and expect that person to negotiate all the conflicts between you. If one guy kept whining because he rolled a gutterball or his fish got away, whoever was annoyed the most would just step up and say, "Dude, it's just bowling/fishing, stop being such a candyass about it."

Valid points.

The group needs, however, to be more or less harmonious for a good game to roll. If players had an issue that was not game related then it's none of my buisness. However, this one is very much an in game issue and even if I chose not to get involved, its consequences would still reach me eventually.

Edit: Savagefish: If I had a penny every time I suggested this to a problem player... 'Unfortunately' I am the most experienced person in most of my circles so no one's willing to take the mantle from me.

Thank you all for your replies,

R.P.

[Killer Angel]

Too easy. Start up a game where he gets to DM for a few secessions.

On a general note, you cannot force anyone to DM.
In this particular case, the whining player don't even know the PhB...

[Fitz10019]

Keep a deck of cards next to you. Explain that everytime someone whines, you'll toss a card at them, and this will mean -10xp. Follow through.

[kamikasei]

He gets hit by a monster, he whines.
The BBEGirls minions are preferably targeting him cause he insulted her, he whines.
He breaks formation from the party and gets swarmed by the Kythons he's fighting, he whines (he has done this three times in the past).
The story goes against the party, he whines.
He only gets 100 exp from a truly trivial encounter, he whines.
His ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunities from enemies within melee range, he whines (Yes, I have explained to him many times the rules and logic behind this. I've told him to read the PHB, he hasn't )
...
1) "No matter what I do, I cannot win".
2) "I don't like bad stuff happening to my character and you keep tossing tough encounters at us."

Kind of sounds like learned helplessness to me. He hasn't bothered to learn the system and figure out what his character is capable of, so he tries things that don't make sense, they go badly for him, and he ends up feeling like nothing he does can succeed, an attitude which spills over in to areas where the rules aren't relevant.

Solution? Get him to learn the freakin' rules. A character with a reasonably straightforward set of abilities, so he doesn't have to keep too many options in mind to start out with, who'll take direction from the tactical leader of the party or just have a clearly-defined role he can fill well so that he doesn't have to make too many decisions between different courses of action before he gains a visceral appreciation for their relative effectiveness, might benefit him. Make sure he knows what his options are, and warn him if he's about to do something clearly suboptimal (in character) like shooting at someone across the room while there's an enemy right in front of him waiting to shank him.

And tell him to stop whining. As in, "things will not always go your way, you will be attacked and need to defend yourself, hurt and need to be healed, have obstacles thrown in your way which you have to overcome - so deal with them and trust that you do have the means to do so if you try". If he can't actually play the game without complaining about the unfairness of ever getting a bad result, he should't be playing the game and at that point the best thing to do is to let him go.

[Rising Phoenix]

Kind of sounds like learned helplessness to me. He hasn't bothered to learn the system and figure out what his character is capable of, so he tries things that don't make sense, they go badly for him, and he ends up feeling like nothing he does can succeed, an attitude which spills over in to areas where the rules aren't relevant.

That's... an angle I had forgotten to look at. Thank you. He's been playing for two years. I am gonna tell him to read the PHB otherwise he shouldn't bother coming next game.

Solution? Get him to learn the freakin' rules. A character with a reasonably straightforward set of abilities, so he doesn't have to keep too many options in mind to start out with, who'll take direction from the tactical leader of the party or just have a clearly-defined role he can fill well so that he doesn't have to make too many decisions between different courses of action before he gains a visceral appreciation for their relative effectiveness, might benefit him. Make sure he knows what his options are, and warn him if he's about to do something clearly suboptimal (in character) like shooting at someone across the room while there's an enemy right in front of him waiting to shank him.

And tell him to stop whining. As in, "things will not always go your way, you will be attacked and need to defend yourself, hurt and need to be healed, have obstacles thrown in your way which you have to overcome - so deal with them and trust that you do have the means to do so if you try". If he can't actually play the game without complaining about the unfairness of ever getting a bad result, he should't be playing the game and at that point the best thing to do is to let him go.

Yup that too.

[Cicciograna]

I'll begin saying that I whined too. I've been a whining player, whining for the difficulty of the encounters, for the lack of XP, for the lack of magic items, for the fact that I constantly perceived myself weaker than my fellow players and unable to find my role.

Spoiler

Show

In my defense, I'll say that I haven't ALWAYS been a whiner: this was only a recent behavior due to a general sense of depression and insecurity. Now that I feel healthier and more steady, I regard myself as a very good player.

As an ex-whiner (because I found the way to quit whining), I can tell you that whining often has deeper reasons that simply not enjoying the game: in my case, whining was caused by my low self-esteem, insecurity and fear of competition, which obviously are personal problems well over the context of RPG. I don't know if this is your player's case, but if he suffers from these problems (even unconsciously) it is possible that he casts his weaknesses on his character.

You can help him. As a DM and as a friend. RPG can be really therapeutic sometimes.
I quitted whining when I realized that my character and me were two different entities, in two different worlds...but the sentience behind both was the same. I was not him, I was not an heroic character bound to save the world from the evils menacing him, but at the same time I was him, his actions were mine, his fears were mine, and backing up complaining for the difficulties of life wouldn't have helped me saving the world. Immersion was the key: I quitted thinking as a player of a game and began thinking as a character in a menacing world where I could count only on my forces to survive. And with time the disparity of power between the real me and my alter ego was subsumed by the faith in my means: I began casting my character strengths on my real self!

So I'd suggest him to immerse more deeply in his character. Tell him to feel him, to begin thinking and acting as he would have thinked and acted: ask him if he would have complained and whined in the middle of the battle, surrounded by bloodthirsty enemies who didn't care anything about his whining; his character could curse the bad luck, but he's into his life knee-deep, and all he can do is to fight harder to improve his lot, as whining is useless.

[Rising Phoenix]

Right, just spoke to him.

He said he'd try and that he was doing to vent frustration (he didn't say what was frustrating him in real life so I couldn't help him as a friend there :(). He also said that he'd try to read the PHB.

I didn't enjoy doing it, but it had to be done.

*Sigh*

Thanks everyone.

[kamikasei]

You might consider (if you want to go that far; it's definitely an extra mile) going through the rules, or a "tutorial game", with him one-on-one some time. It may be (and I'm putting the benefit of the doubt on the end of a ten-foot pole here to poke in his general direction) that he finds reading the rulebooks tedious or difficult or hard to fit in, time-wise, or that the information just doesn't sink in for him, whereas if he was sitting down with you at a table and grid and going through how combat works with the opportunity to ask questions and test out scenarios, he might learn better and more quickly.

Like I said, this is above and beyond. However, if he does have a mental block about the rules or his ability to comprehend them it's more likely to be eroded by discussion than by assigning reading.

[Psyx]

Describe stuff. That will make him feel better. D&D sucks for 'I roll, I hit' style combat. If he sucks down a bad hit, describe how the minator takes a swing at his head; he dives under the blow a little too slowly, and there's a spray of blood from his shoulder, but he grits his teeth and presses on.

Even getting the crud kicked out of you is fun with a good bit of GMing.

[nedz]

This kind of thing is routine with some players and I generally ignore it. This often causes the behaviour to change.

However, in case that doesn't work: You've got a group of friends playing a game, so use them. Whilst you could use peer pressure to brow beat him, its probably better to get another player to help him, certainly with the rules. Perhaps explain that you're too busy running like the world? I don't know what your group is like, but there is probably someone who can help out. Often just asking someone else to intervene will solve this problem.

[Severus]

I have actually had repeated dealings with a player who was almost exactly like this (except for the part about not knowing rules - this particular player knew them inside out). Fortunately I wasn't DMing this player, but I was in the several of the same gaming groups and they behaved the same in every single game.

The answer is: Tough Love. Before the start of the next game, take the individual aside and speak to them in private. Do not speak to them in front of the other players, because they'll feel like they're being ganged-up on; other players will interrupt and make this more difficult, and the problem player will get defensive and possibly aggressive.

Tell the player in a polite manner that their attitude is ruining the fun of the game for you (the DM) and the other players. Tell them: if they're not having fun, then they should leave the game and they can come back when they can behave in a more sociable manner. Stress that this is not about them personally, it's about their attitude when playing; and the game is for the enjoyment of all the players and DM, not just them. Do not mention the names of specific other players if they ask who is complaining about them, just say "everyone". If they promise to clean up their act and behave, it's up to you to decide if you want to allow them to remain; but tell them that this is a final warning, and the first sign that they're returning to their previous behaviour, they are out of the game. Be harsh if necessary, but be fair.

I think this.

We had a very disruptive player who wasn't enjoying the gaming style we were. He didn't like group things, he wanted to run off on his own, and do his own thing. His idea of a perfect gaming session was the the GM to spend 10 minutes an hour talking to each player. In the other 50 minutes when you weren't in the spot light, you read comics and the like.

The GM talked to him and said basically, "You're not having fun. This seems to lead you to act out and disrupt the game for everyone, so now we're not having fun either. The problem here is you. You can get with the program or you can leave and find a game that suits you."

He chose to leave and the game improved immensely.

I think you need to make it crystal clear that his behavior is damaging everyone's enjoyment of the game and that will not be tolerated.

I was in a game recently where I got pretty frustrated with the GM and he with me. I like him a lot personally, but I stepped away from the game because I was just disrupting it and not enjoying it. That's what responsible gamers do.

YMMV.

[Volomon]

Sounds like he's already tried the mature approach already and it didn't work. I would say talk to the players with HIM not there, and see how they feel the situation is shaping up. Have THEM talk to him one on one, not you. Clearly he feels you are instigating the situation in which it is unfair to him and anything you say will just be more of the same, hence he has failed to heed anything you have said.

When you talk to the other players ask them if THEY feel you are going beyond what they think you should do make the talk about YOU not HIM, and see if it is actually an issue with the way you DM. If you make the talk about HIM, then it might make it seem you really are on him (if there is any doubt in the group).

If they agree that he is just a whiny player and he should man up then have them each talk to him in turn one on one. A group feeling robbed of the experience is far better one on one situation, than a (in his mind) crappy DM telling him he whines to much.

After this plant a foot in his rear and say good bye, because ultimately it is not about one player it is about the group and his behavior is unacceptable.

[Zeta Kai]

I've encountered people like this, both at the table & in real life. Retail service jobs make you run into these folks all the time. Here's their secret: at some point, these people learned that they can use their helplessness as a tool to get what they want from you. Their weakness IS their strength. Observe:

• Clerk: Hello. How can I help you?
• Customer: I need That Thing.
• Clerk: Oh, okay. That Thing is in aisle 6.
• Customer: I couldn't find it.
• Clerk: Oh really? Well, it's in aisle 6, on the left-hand side, second shelf, towards the very end.
• Customer: I couldn't find it. Could you get it for me?
• Clerk: Hmmm... I'm pretty sure that it's there. I'll go check for you.

Sure enough, That Thing was right where you thought it was, but now you're in front of it, & it's just easier to bring That Thing to the customer. It doesn't matter if you were right, the customer got you to go get That Thing for them, & now they know that they can get you again. They've won, & they've turned their ignorance into a weapon against you.

The same thing is playing out here. This player is whining up a storm, gobbling up all the attention (which they may have not gotten enough of as a youth) & forcing you to cater to their needs/wants/demands/desire/sick-power-games. He's got your goat, & until you display the stiff upper lip that your want him to have, he'll keep whining his way to victory.

Your best bet is to shame him in front of the rest of the table. Do it subtly, with little jokes, & play it off like a good-natured gag. I know that seems harsh, but he's trying to condition your behavior to suit him, so turnabout is fair play. The next time that he starts his whining, asking him if he wants a box of tissues, then laugh while looking at the other players. They'll probably laugh too, which will compound his embarrassment. If he keeps it up, make it a running gag. Bring out a box of actual tissues & put 'em on the table. If he keeps it up, write his name on the box with a sharpie. If he keeps it up, buy him a cheap pacifier at the store & put it at his place on the table. Keep escalating slowly, getting more silly & passive-aggressive with each step, & get the other players involved whenever possible.

I know the above paragraph sounds horribly cruel, but trust me. He'll stop well before you get very far. He'll see that he can't use his whining to get want he wants, & he'll see that it only causes his embarrassment, so he'll stop. This good behavior deserves encouragement, so be kind to him once he gets his act together. Once he has stopped whining, make sure that good things happen for him at the table. If the other players keep up the joke after he quits whining, defend him publicly. Help him get along with the other players IC & OOC. You're the DM, & while you're not the players' babysitter, the game's harmony (or the lack thereof) is completely in your hands.

With a little social manipulation, you can get him to want to change himself, which is crucial. Because as long as there is no incentive for him to change, he never will.