My first psionic [3.5]

[Il_Vec]

I'm a long time player and I've been a fan of the psionic system for some time. For the first time, however, a DM has accepted the use of psionics in a campaign I'll play. It will be Eberron, we'll start level 5 and probably go to around 15, in 32 point buy.
I figured I'd go Psion 2/something 3/ Illidith Slayer X or just Psywarr. Maybe War Mind?

So, any advice for me? Handbook links, powers I should look at? Am I nerfing myself too much by not going staight Psion or Ardent?
I have acess to XPH and complete psionics, but not dragon magazine or dragon compendium. I also have all completes, tome of battle and most eberron material.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't recommend warmind for any build that bases on psionics, as it doesn't advance caster levels for other psionic classes(it's more of a fighter thing than a psychic warrior thing).
Other than that, even a straight psion20, psyWarrior20 and ardent20 are competitive. The system itself is well designed.

[gallagher]

Tashlatora Monk/PsyWar works well with 2 levels of monk (not sure i spelled that T work correctly though)

you already have a high wisdom, so why not? also, you should ask your DM if you can do the same thing with an unarmed swordsage instead of monk, because the stances will be much better than anything you get with a monk

warmind works if you are not as focused on your powers, as it increases your combat abilities. if you do use warmind, make sure you have psionic lions pounce and concealing amorpha greater first, as they are crucial to being the best martial character you can be without full BAB

[Dusk Eclipse]

Depends what you want to do. It seems that you want to make a psygish (at a glance. and the normal entry into slayer is Ranger 2 (Or ranger 1/Full BAB 1)/Psion 4/SLayer 10/.

I like that build very much and I usually select psychotransportation as my discipline because I love the mobility fighter archetipe.

OTOH Psy Warrior is a perfectly useful class and very fun to play and can be quite powerful (if you don't believe me ask Lycanthromancer).

Hmmm Straight psion is quite good too, though I like Anarchic Initiate (the only prestige class that has 10/10 manifesting bar third party.

[2xMachina]

I like Ardent.

[Optimystik]

Psion Handbook
Power Choice Ratings by level

General tips/queries:

1) Is there a specific reason you want to go Slayer? The beefy HD and martial weapon proficiency are nice, but it's still geared more towards gishes - which is fine if that's what you want. For pure manifesting, consider instead PrCs like Constructor, Meditant, Anarchic Initiate, Crystal Master and Thrallherd - or even Eberron classes like Quori Mindhunter if they fit your concept.

2) If you still want to be a Slayer, use the SRD Slayer, not Illithid Slayer. A dip in Ranger will give you the Track feat free and help you meet the BAB requirement.

3) Avoid War Mind - it's for non-manifesting martial classes (like Soulknife) to pick up some powers and BAB. You are already a primary manifester.

4) What race do you want to be?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Optimystik: The second link is pure gold

[Optimystik]

Optimystik: The second link is pure gold

I only found it recently myself, while designing my Psiforged Erudite. Needless to say, I was quite pleased.

It seems to be missing Eberron powers though, like Forced Dream.

[Draz74]

I only found it recently myself, while designing my Psiforged Erudite. Needless to say, I was quite pleased.

It seems to be missing Eberron powers though, like Forced Dream.

Isn't it SRD/XPH only? I didn't notice any CPsi powers in it either.

[true_shinken]

If it's Eberron, please be a Kalashtar.
I also enjoy Ardent. Ardent/Slayer is very solid.

[Optimystik]

Isn't it SRD/XPH only? I didn't notice any CPsi powers in it either.

Indeed, I was more pointing out for the OP (since he has the Eberron books) that he may want to go digging.

For instance, Secrets of Sarlona has Psionic Prestidigitation - endless fun at parties

[AvatarZero]

Quick question about psionics while this thread is open. What does a psion using a power look like? Is it more stealthy than someone casting a spell? (I was thinking about a psionic version of an arcane trickster.)

[Snake-Aes]

Quick question about psionics while this thread is open. What does a psion using a power look like? Is it more stealthy than someone casting a spell? (I was thinking about a psionic version of an arcane trickster.)

Compared to spells, they are very subtle. On their own, they have their own manifestation(Visual,Auditory,Olfatory,Material,Me ntal), but they can be suppressed by a concentration check. They also don't require any sort of movement from your part unless it's something like an attack roll.

An analogy to arcane is that psionic powers are silent still spells.

[Optimystik]

Quick question about psionics while this thread is open. What does a psion using a power look like? Is it more stealthy than someone casting a spell? (I was thinking about a psionic version of an arcane trickster.)

Powers have displays. But if the psion suppresses the display (requires a concentration check), observers can't tell where the power is coming from. (Unless it's something obvious, like a ray.)

The powers themselves, as Snake_Aes said, are activated by thought alone and thus lack verbal and somatic components.

[erikun]

Straight Psychic Warrior works well. The lower BAB is made up by powers has psionic feats (ie. Deep Impact). There are several powers that you will likely want anyways, such as Psionic Lion's Charge. As Gallagher mentioned, the Tashalatora feat will allow you to take a few levels of Monk (typically 2 for Evasion) and then continue on as a Psychic Warrior, using your PsyWar levels to continue progressing your Monk defenses.

Psion will probably be looking at the Egoist discipline, as that is the one which provides you the most buffs. You will probably be looking at the Expanded Knowledge feat, for the good Psychic Warrior powers that the Psion does not get. Psion/Slayer is good if you are focusing on gishing, although Optimystik mentioned several PrCs which focus on manifesting. On the other hand, something like the Shaper discipline focuses more on blasting, which psionics is actually good at, and the Psion has the PP to do so.

War Mind is only good when entering from a non-psionic source, such as Soulknife/War Mind or Fighter/War Mind. A Psychic Warrior/War Mind is limited as a 10th level manifester on both sides, while a straight Psychic Warrior would be a 20th level manifester. Monk/Psionic Monk is another to look at, if you are interested. I suppose something like Swordsage/War Mind would be good if you had a ToB-psionic dual progression prestige class to enter.

Ardent (Complete Psionic) is another very good class, with 3/4 BAB and 9th level manifesting. You aren't likely to have the number or variety of powers of the Psion, though. Wilder is also another choice (d6, 3/4 BAB) but is still a bit squishy and very limited in the number of powers they can learn.

[AvatarZero]

Powers have displays. But if the psion suppresses the display (requires a concentration check), observers can't tell where the power is coming from. (Unless it's something obvious, like a ray.)

The powers themselves, as Snake_Aes said, are activated by thought alone and thus lack verbal and somatic components.

So if you can make a DC 15+power level Conc check, you can cast the psionic equivalent of ghost sound or mage hand without anyone being able to tell you did anything? You could make that check on a 1 with a lot less work than it takes to cast stilled silent arcane spells.

Does psionics/magic transparency apply to prestige classes? I wonder which Psion discipline I should pick for an Unseen Seer build. Hmmm...

[erikun]

So if you can make a DC 15+power level Conc check, you can cast the psionic equivalent of ghost sound or mage hand without anyone being able to tell you did anything? You could make that check on a 1 with a lot less work than it takes to cast stilled silent arcane spells.

Does psionics/magic transparency apply to prestige classes? I wonder which Psion discipline I should pick for an Unseen Seer build. Hmmm...

Well, given that Psions are still subject to AoO while manifesting, it would make sense that something is happening while watching the Psion. It's just that the Psion doesn't hum or glow in the dark anymore. For example, someone normally manifesting Astral Construct has a visual manifestation. Perhaps their eyes glow, or etheral mists leak off their body and form into the construct. When suppressing the display, they still appear to be concentration but aren't visibly glowing or giving off mist. It just looks like they started thinking, and the Astral Construct appeared out of thin air.

How obvious it is that the Psion created the construct would likely depend on the situation.

And the transparency rules recommend allowing psionics to qualify for magic prestige classes, I believe. The Seer discipline would likely be most appropriate for the Unseen Seer prestige class.

[AvatarZero]

Well, given that Psions are still subject to AoO while manifesting, it would make sense that something is happening while watching the Psion.

I always hated the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick for implying that simply not being obviously casting a spell was enough to prevent AoOs. My take on all AoOs is that if you're in a threatened space then you're constantly under attack and constantly defending yourself; you provoke an AoO if you lower your guard, in this case by concentrating on your power instead of your opponent. I approve of Psions still provoking AoOs even if their spell has no visible components; unless they're manifesting defensively they clearly dropped their guard. I disapprove of the idea that when it's not their turn, a melee character is standing on the spot doing nothing, and that they only act in response to certain specific cues like someone waving their hands around or moving away from them without backflipping. And I deeply resent the idea that someone at Wizards prefers version 2, and referred to that version when they wrote the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick.

And the transparency rules recommend allowing psionics to qualify for magic prestige classes, I believe.

Hot damn. That must the best stealthy pseudo-caster build in all of DnD. Beats the Shadowmage on power, beats everyone else on subtlety.

[Snake-Aes]

I always hated the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick for implying that simply not being obviously casting a spell was enough to prevent AoOs. My take on all AoOs is that if you're in a threatened space then you're constantly under attack and constantly defending yourself; you provoke an AoO if you lower your guard, in this case by concentrating on your power instead of your opponent.

That's the idea, yes. All the AOO fluff agrees with that too. Defensive casting is casting without lowering your guard. Robilar's is showing an opening in your stance. nonimproved unarmed strike is you exposing your soft unprotected flesh to their pointy ends.

Casting the spell "without looking like you are doing so" could be just that you disguised the concentration with a feint or some **** like that. It's an alternative to combat casting really.

[Optimystik]

So if you can make a DC 15+power level Conc check, you can cast the psionic equivalent of ghost sound or mage hand without anyone being able to tell you did anything?

Correct. As erikun said however, some powers can give you away even if you suppress displays. For instance, using your mage hand example - that requires concentration, so look for the guy staring fixedly at the object being lifted.

Not foolproof certainly, but it could come up.
(Incidentally, Secrets of Sarlona has the psionic version of Mage Hand called Force of Mind - which incorporates Open/Close.)

Does psionics/magic transparency apply to prestige classes? I wonder which Psion discipline I should pick for an Unseen Seer build. Hmmm...

No, it doesn't. You can homebrew a psionic version of Unseen Seer but the class itself cannot progress manifesting.

[Dusk Eclipse]

<snip>



Hot damn. That must the best stealthy pseudo-caster build in all of DnD. Beats the Shadowmage on power, beats everyone else on subtlety.

Two things
1) a psion is a much as a caster as wizard, they only have a different power source!!

2) I don't think an psionic unseen seer would beat a shadomage (I am assuming you are refering to the Shadowcraft mage) since in D&D versatility is one of the most powerful assets to a character and a welll built* shadowcraft mage can have ANY Evocation or conjuration (summoning)/(Creation) spells at his call and beck anytime he wants.

*Though an ecyclopedic knowledge of the above spell schools is definetly a great advantage.


Now concernig the psionic adaptation of Unseen seer, how should we manage the advanced learning? it normally recieves spells from the divination school and since the counterpart of clairsentience is divination. I suggest giving expanded knowledge without the limitation of "power of a lower level than the highest you can normally manifest" but only for powers of the clairsentinence.

The above now makes the class much more appealing to other disciplines, personally I would make a psy rogue 1/Nomad 4/ Psy-unseen Seer. (this just screams scy & die to me )

[Touchy]

(Incidentally, Secrets of Sarlona has the psionic version of Mage Hand called Force of Mind - which incorporates Open/Close.)

I thought Far Hand was the psionic mage hand?

[elonin]

There's another big advantage to being a psion over an arcane caster. Their powers scale for the most part where arcane don't.

[erikun]

Well, the powers scale when you wish to devote PP to them. Spells scale automatically as the spellcaster levels. The biggest benefit for Psions is that spending PP increases the DC to an appropriate level, while something like a Wizard's Charm Person spell is locked at the lower DC.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There's another big advantage to being a psion over an arcane caster. Their powers scale for the most part where arcane don't.

Sorry but you are wrong, powefrs for the most part don't scale unless you augment them

On the arcane side lets say fireball, it automatically gets stronger, 5d6 at the level you get it 5 and at level 10 it is 10d6 without having to expend aditional resourses other than the 3rd level spell slot.

While a psion with energy bolt normally costing 5 PP and dealing 5d6; but to stay competitive at higher levels the psion would have to expend 10 powerpoints at level 10 to have the power deal the same damage an arcane caster would have done with fireball.

Hope I make sense

Edit: Swordsage'd also Erikun if you use highten spell you can improve the DC of your lower level spells.

[elonin]

Yes it makes sense. I should have defined terms I bought into the discussion. For example an energy missile is a 1st level manifestation that you could put up to manifesting level of power points into and still have some effect. If you put a fireball into a 7th level slot it would only be to put feats into it (let's leave that out for now). Relatively soon after having acquired fireball it's just about useless 'cept for maybe setting a library on fire due to damage caps.

That is what I meant by scaling.

[2xMachina]

And funnily, of all things, Mindbender does not advance Psionics.\

As for scaling... IDK. Spell casters get damage (and some other) auto-scaling. Psionic gets the option to scale up everything.

[Snake-Aes]

It's more about what scales, really. Damage powers are less efficient than damage spells, but you can use a single Charm against just about any type of monster, you can use a single Summon spell for all levels, you can grow more than one size category with the same Enlarge...

[Kylarra]

The nice thing about blasting powers from psionics, besides the DC scaling as you augment, is the ability to target different saves and utilize different elements on the fly.

[AvatarZero]

Correct. As erikun said however, some powers can give you away even if you suppress displays. For instance, using your mage hand example - that requires concentration, so look for the guy staring fixedly at the object being lifted.

Sure, but being able to move the object without drawing attention is still an extremely useful ability. Swiping a key from inside the prison bars while the guards play poker three dragon ante while chained to the wall (and upside-down?) is doable if you can be silent about it and no-one's watching the key. And if they are? You can use Create Sound to distract them, with equal subtlety.

Two things
1) a psion is a much as a caster as wizard, they only have a different power source!!

Technically they're not casters, they're manifesters. I know, though, same thing.

With magic, psionics, maneuvres and even soulmelds (and pacts and mysteries?), is there any reason why a 3.5 game can't go the way of 4e and give everyone a suite of limited use powers?

2) I don't think an psionic unseen seer would beat a shadomage (I am assuming you are refering to the Shadowcraft mage) since in D&D versatility is one of the most powerful assets to a character and a welll built* shadowcraft mage can have ANY Evocation or conjuration (summoning)/(Creation) spells at his call and beck anytime he wants.

*Though an ecyclopedic knowledge of the above spell schools is definetly a great advantage.

Nope. I made a different mistake; I meant the Shadowcaster from the Tome of Magic, which would have been so much more fun if it were competitive with a beguiler as a sneaky-mage.

And actually, I think that an Unseen Seer could give a Shadowcraft Mage a run for his money barring excessive preparation or Schrödinger's spellbook (which are pretty much a given at high levels, such as the ones where you take levels in Shadowcraft Mage...)

Now concernig the psionic adaptation of Unseen seer, how should we manage the advanced learning? it normally recieves spells from the divination school and since the counterpart of clairsentience is divination. I suggest giving expanded knowledge without the limitation of "power of a lower level than the highest you can normally manifest" but only for powers of the clairsentinence.

The above now makes the class much more appealing to other disciplines, personally I would make a psy rogue 1/Nomad 4/ Psy-unseen Seer. (this just screams scy & die to me )

Just use it as is. Instead of adding any Divination spell you could cast to your spell list, add any Clairsentience power you could manifest to your power list. The only difficult thing in that PrC is what to do with the bonus feat Silent Spell, and that could easily be just "any psionic feat of your choice".